very nice of a summary,
not too many people will have the same insight like just what you have stated.. however,
glad to see someone with such an intellegent post [quote]
1) If the whole world and universe are a sequence of random variables... if you look form the probability point of view, it will be a number like 2to the power of more than 30. A very very very small chance. It would take even a bigger faith to believe this theory than believe the world was created by GOD.
[/quote]
But do you have to believe in a view that require "less faith"? Can you just wait and see? I am waiting to see, and I am more comfortable with looking into the probability point of view.
In 1935, Einstein et al published the "EPR paradox". They tried to use some probabilistic interpretation to question the statistical nature of Quantum Mechanics. In 1964, Bell proved by the "Bell's Theorem", that EPR's probabilistic framwork is absolutely wrong.
I am more interested with something that can be rigorously verified/disproved. Simply because I would have a right/wrong answer at the end of the day.
[quote]
2) Arguing BIBLE is absolute truth or "99.99 truth" ( I have to clarify that I mean 99.99% truth is the translation) is somewhat waste of time, because if you do not believe the BIBLE is the record that was recording history of man and the relationshiip between GOD and man. Then there is no point of going forward. For myself, the more I read the BIBLE, the more I found out how GOD intervene man's life through out human's history. The Bible did not only say how great of successful when those man follow GOD. Instead, it shows how weak human are, LOOK at Solomon, David, Jacob, most of them were so called great person in the BIBLE.. Look at what they have done in their whole life. The Bible did not hide their short fall. Instead it kept on stating human's shortfall.
If you can read the Bible with an open mind and look at it from a more historic and human sense ( Like reading a novel). You will find it very intersting.
[/quote]
Are you suggesting that the Bible [b]must[/b] be interpreted subjectively? Then how would you know that your perception, and thus your belief, is 100% correct?
The subjective interpretation of the Bible led to bad things such as the [b]Crusades and Inquisition[/b]. The believers didn't know that they're wrong back then. How do you know that you're right in the present?
To take a step further, one subjective interpretation is the determination of the "context" of the Bible. Where does it apply? "1984" by George Orwell is a fiction that correctly reflected the current state of Western Society and predicted future social changes. And a collection of Chinese literatures recorded Chinese history from way back. So, how would you take the Bible beyond a "good history book" and a "good observation of social evolution"?
Apparently the Bible has none or very little contradition to science or culture, because it has always been interpreted subjectively. One reason the Bible is accepted by republic, monarchical, and deomocratic society is that the Bible [b]can[/b] be interpreted subjectively to fit what people thinks.
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3) I always think, if there is no GOD, then what are we doing on earth, why do we have to do what we ae doing now? Life is so short? Why don't I enjoy my life while I can? Why do I have to be a god man? WHy do I have to abide all the rules set by human, both moral and legal rules? I should enjoy myself with my maximum ability. It does not matter you have religious believeor not, but you have to admitt everyone has a moral standard...
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Religions have heavy influence on the moral and legal standard of our society. Just look at gay marriage in America. And moral standard is directly affected by your up-bringing. Most people believe in what their parents told them.
The "moral standard" you're abided to has nothing to do with religion. If you go back 1000 years in China, pre-maritial sex is against anyone's "moral standard". But if you go to Amsterdam right now, I bet every teenager is looking for sex.
[quote]WHy don't we just do whatever we like?[/quote]
Alot of people do, but most religious peope don't.
[quote]Why did we have conscience and not other living creature?[/quote]
Even if conscience exist, how can you conclusively link it to God and not other things?
[quote]
4) Believe in GOD, like a sounds, it is a believe, believe involve faith, something that cannot be caluclate or proof. However, it does involve experience. I firmly believe if anyone really want to experience GOD, he/she can and will. But man are too busy in other things, making a lving, having a better living, a lot of other things to chase, and not enough time...... And the main reason is, man wants to be their own god, we are all afraid if we let God intervene our life, there will be a lot of things that we can not do......... What happen if we slack off at work, or got drunk... and many many other things....... there will be a lot of rules that will bound us from enjoying our life......
I can tell you this, I felt the same too before...... but more I know theGOD we believe and His plan, the less concern and worries I have.... because when you really read the BIBLE, GOD said it very clear, HE wants us all to haveJOY , not just after our earthly life, but NOW. BIBLE is not a book of laws, but rather a book of resource to find JOY and resource to live.
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But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?
Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.
And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth [b]just[/b] because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.
[quote]Do you believe in History of man? Do you believe the persons that write the history were telling the truth? Do you believe the existence of ROman Empire? Greek culture? Chinese? Indian? Were all those people that record their history are telling the truth?[/quote]
I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.
[quote]In today's world, sometimes, we can't even believe what we see...... so in whatever way, everything involves a certain degree of faith......[/quote]
But why you have to believe in something? I have THREE options: 1)to believe 2) to believe against 3) not to make a decision. I have THREE, not TWO.
[quote]In the BIBLE case, I believe everything that record in there is Truth.[/quote]
But can you tell me why? I want to know.
[quote]
Make it short, if you read the Bible with a critical view and not even try to have a objective mind.. than the BIBLE means nothing to yu but just anoother book..... but if you have a open mind and willing to see whether the Word in the BIBLE is powerful or not, then I am sure you wll find amazing result......
[/quote]
I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?
Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??
Thank you very much. Remember one thing:
Christianity is not ONLY talking about RELIGIONS
it's talking about relationship between God and us.
May GOD bless everything.
westsider, that's good to see you are opening your heart and asks your questions to GOD, I am sure GOD is really appericated your reaction, keep going.
imaimashi: if you have MSN/ICQ, pls leave it to me, Iwould like to chat to u
Love in HIM,
Bright [quote]Originally posted by [i]Gretzky[/i] at 2005-8-18 08:21 AM:
snowbal and westsider pals,
The ... [/quote]
I am not starting a war. I am asking questions because I care. I won't spend all these time typing things up otherwise.
I think this is a good answer to question 3).
I am interested in knowing why people believe in the Chrisitian God based on these collection of scriptures.
But if you look at the Dead Sea scrolls for example.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls[/url]
The Dead Sea scrolls were not even 100% about Christianity. I mean there are multiple religions based on portion of these scriptures.
So in the framework of Christianity, how did people determine which scripture to include into the Bible? Did Bible/God indicate which scriputre to include? and how? Well I apologize if my words sounding too harsh.
I mean I know these are tough questions. And some of them are taught in grad school in Dvinity or something. But I don't have all the time in the world to do that, so I'm just interested in some quick answers.... [quote]Originally posted by [i]westsider[/i] at 2005-8-18 11:55:
Well I apologize if my words soundi... [/quote]
That's ok, I could understand you are trying to know and learn things
Sometimes, we need to slow down, and open a room, to let GOD talk to us in His way
I am glad that you are starting to seek His helps
Be strong and wait........
Bright:):):) Quote:
The subjective interpretation of the Bible led to bad things such as the Crusades and Inquisition. The believers didn't know that they're wrong back then. How do you know that you're right in the present?
Response:
You are exactly right, a lot of people using religion to pursue their own personal interest, that is why in USA and many other western countries state in their constitution religion and political must be separated
If someone use religion to achieve their personal agenda, then condemn the religion is not right.
Quote:
Religions have heavy influence on the moral and legal standard of our society. Just look at gay marriage in America. And moral standard is directly affected by your up-bringing. Most people believe in what their parents told them.
Response:
SO, you think our moral standard is totally influence by religion. I think it is a little subjective. However, it is true that no matter where you live, in the modern world or in very remote area in Africa. All human will in one way or the other worship a god…. Although sometimes they do not know what they are worshiping. In either way, all human does have a very basic moral standard to govern.
Quote:
WHy don't we just do whatever we like?
Alot of people do, but most religious people don't.
Response:
I do not agree on that, like my example stated in my last quote….
If someone offend you and you will just go and punch the person out??
Will you do something to embrass yourself in front of a lot of people?
Quote:
Why did we have conscience and not other living creature?
Even if conscience exist, how can you conclusively link it to God and not other things?
Response:
Now, I based this from the BIBLE, God ssid HE made man according to HIS image, and gave us a conscience mind just like HIM.
Of course, for you to accept this mean you have to admit the BIBLE is true. It may be a little tough for you.
Quote:
But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?
Response:
Christianity does not require 100% change I your values.
Rather, as a Christian, we can do things that we know it that is right and not doing things that is against our principal with EASE and peace of mind.
Quote:
Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.
Response:
This is a very shallow view on Christianity. God promised Joy , that means we will find JOY on earth, we will enjoy all the things just as everyone else. But one thing different, As a Christian, we believe God will take care of us. It does not mean Christian will not face suffering, but rather, God will provide a way out, Again, this is a very personal experience. For people that have doubt in God’s power. It will be tough to accept this fact.
Quote:
And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.
Response:
I think what you raise here, is pure for argument sake…ha ha..
Quote:
Quote:
Do you believe in History of man? Do you believe the persons that write the history were telling the truth? Do you believe the existence of ROman Empire? Greek culture? Chinese? Indian? Were all those people that record their history are telling the truth?
I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.
Response:
I think this is purely for argument sake, if you have doubt on everything, I guess you must be very skeptic on everything….
Quote:
Quote:
In the BIBLE case, I believe everything that record in there is Truth.
But can you tell me why? I want to know.
Response:
All I can tell you is my own personal experience,
1) I believe this world is created by someone that is much more intellegent than human
2) Compare to other religion, Christianity is the only religion that based on history and can be traced back with accuracy
3) The more I read the Bible, the more I found that the astonishing truth
Quote:
I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?
Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??
Response:
You are very right, you can take any book and right a review with your own subjective view…. You can do it with the BIBLE too, DID you try to do that? See whether you can found some flaw in the BIBLE…… But make sure, do a through research….
As for me, I have utmost confidence that you will fail, try to proof me wrong….
Best of wish [quote]Originally posted by [i]westsider[/i] at 2005-8-17 01:31 PM:
So how would you answer if I as... [/quote]
To simply answer your question "Why do you believe in God?"
Because I see how God molds me in everyday of my life. I was a failure when I was young, I skipped classes and hanged around with friends. Six years ago, I was lucky enough that God provided me an opportunity to study at college. But, I didn't cherish the chance God gave me. I got kick out at last.
At that time, I was so lost... I can't get a job because I am lack of education. I don't know what to do. My parent was so worry about me at that time. At that time, many people told me to pray and pray...... I tried and tired.... God gave me no response. I hate God at that time because He ignored me so badly even when I pray 10 times a day.
God tought me a big lesson thru this incident. He wants me to learn how to concentrate and focus on my works.
To make the long story short, God provides me an opportunity to study at the University. I received scholarship every years and unexpected research opportunities throughout my undergrad. study. At last, I received around 12,000 HKD scholarship for my graduate study.
God loves us so much if you believe in Him. He makes everything possible.
[[i] Last edited by x_integration_x on 2005-8-18 at 11:28 AM [/i]] Thanks for your sharing, Tony.....
westider, I would suggest you to do one thing:
Think about the relationship between you and GOD.
This may help you to answer your questions in your heart
Bright [quote]Originally posted by [i]x_integration_x[/i] at 2005-8-18 11:20 AM:
To simply answer your questio... [/quote]
I see. Thanks. The interesting thing is that, I have quite an opposite expereince.
I was born and raised in a Christian family. Moved oversea and skipped two grades. In highschool, I found something wrong with my life as I found out the difference between the Chrisitan community and the general community. The single-minded small community lifestyle in the Church didn't make as much sense as the cynical, critical, and rational thinking of the general public. I can only learn from mistake, so I went on self-destruction, failed two years of highschool, and went back to normal in my acamdemic progress. Then I finsihed my undergrad study with a breeze and proceeded to my PhD now.
There were definitely tough times, and in my lowest moments I did think about God. But thing is, I was brought up in this pure Christian propaganda from age zero, and I am not sure if such feeling is indeed the "calling of God", or if it is just a desperation cry for this "safety net" that has been engraved into my mind since I was a child.
I have learnt to accept that fact that things happen, be it good or bad. And when bad things happened to me, I don't even look for an answer. I'll just tell myself that "sh1t happens".
That's why I am now looking for rational ways of validating Christianity or other believes. And I think that the "truth" should be validate from multiple starting points. [quote]Originally posted by [i]snowbal[/i] at 2005-8-18 10:43 AM:
Response:
You are exactly right, a lot of people using religion to pursue their own personal interest, that is why in USA and many other western countries state in their constitution religion and political must be separated
If someone use religion to achieve their personal agenda, then condemn the religion is not right.[/quote]
I am not even worrying about other people. My worry is that, if subjective interpretation led to mistake, how do I know that my own subjective interpretation is correct?
[quote]
Response:
SO, you think our moral standard is totally influence by religion. I think it is a little subjective. However, it is true that no matter where you live, in the modern world or in very remote area in Africa. All human will in one way or the other worship a god…. Although sometimes they do not know what they are worshiping. In either way, all human does have a very basic moral standard to govern.
[/quote]
What I'm saying is that moral values are results of life experince. How can one really isolate the "common" moral values?
If I put two new-born babies into seperate, isolated islands, and bring them back to the society after the age of 25. If I don't educate then in anyway, are they going to feel bad for robbing people, having sex in the public, or even killing people? I cannot answer this question.
[quote]
Quote:
WHy don't we just do whatever we like?
Alot of people do, but most religious people don't.
Response:
I do not agree on that, like my example stated in my last quote….
If someone offend you and you will just go and punch the person out??
Will you do something to embrass yourself in front of a lot of people?
[/quote]
I would. I kicked alot asses, and I did alot of stupid things in my life. I don't feel bad about them. When I look back, I just think that it is part of my life experience.
[quote]
Quote:
But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?
Response:
Christianity does not require 100% change I your values.
Rather, as a Christian, we can do things that we know it that is right and not doing things that is against our principal with EASE and peace of mind.
[/quote]
Yes. Beliving in certain principals and living by them will give you peace of mind. But accepting fate also gave me peace of mind.
[quote]
Quote:
Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.
Response:
This is a very shallow view on Christianity. God promised Joy , that means we will find JOY on earth, we will enjoy all the things just as everyone else. But one thing different, As a Christian, we believe God will take care of us. It does not mean Christian will not face suffering, but rather, God will provide a way out, Again, this is a very personal experience. For people that have doubt in God’s power. It will be tough to accept this fact.
[/quote]
I totally understand what you're saying. Going to my very first message, I am looking for the "truth", not "joy". If the truth gives me joy, fine. If it brings me grief, fine.
[quote]
Quote:
And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.
Response:
I think what you raise here, is pure for argument sake…ha ha..
[/quote]
You are completely incorrect. This [b]is[/b] my personal philosophy.
[quote]
I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.
Response:
I think this is purely for argument sake, if you have doubt on everything, I guess you must be very skeptic on everything….
[/quote]
You are completely incorrect. This [b]is[/b] my personal philosophy. I am skeptical towards everything, including myself. I learn things in generalized universial framework, everything has to be correct and consistent.That's why I averaged C+ in all my humanities electives in undergrad.
[quote]
Quote:
I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?
Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??
Response:
You are very right, you can take any book and right a review with your own subjective view…. You can do it with the BIBLE too, DID you try to do that? See whether you can found some flaw in the BIBLE…… But make sure, do a through research….
As for me, I have utmost confidence that you will fail, try to proof me wrong….
[/quote]
As I ask you, is subjective interpretation the [b]only[/b] way of reading the Bible? If so there is no way of finding "flaws" in the Bible. Because whatever you do, you can also say that "oh, this figuratively means that". But at the same time, I can also make a lot of subjective interpreations that are wrong, but these don't invalidate the Bible either.
Oh the otherhand, if there is some objective ways of looking at the Bible, I can at least have a true/false answer. That's what I'm looking for right now. **** 作者被禁止或刪除 內容自動屏蔽 **** [quote]Originally posted by [i]Gretzky[/i] at 2005-8-18 01:43 PM:
Westsider,
Since you are doing y... [/quote]
Thank you. So what field are you in?
I don't think the level of education really matters here because I am not specialized on this particular subject, and I don't know more than anyone here. I'll check that book out.
I don't use MSN/ICQ. If you want to contact me, send an email to
[email]i.like.spam.alot@gmail.com[/email]
This is my spamming decoy. I will get your email from there and verify afterwards. Westsider
I think what you are arguing all alone is how can you trust the BIBLE, Is it worth believing?
It is very interesting that for you and Gretzky both went through some personal experience and then start thinking about the meaning of life.
For Christian, we will view it as a wakening call from God, because for most of us, Christian or not, we are somehow too busy in our life. Study, work, social life, we just do not have time to sit down and think about what or where we are heading and the purpose of living.
I am a little different form you in terms of background wise, but I too grew up in a Christian church environment. I had the same questions that you have. I tried to ask for an answer, but somehow no one seems to be able to answer my questions. Most of them gave me standard answer. It cannot convince me that what I believe is true. So, going to church or reading Bible, praying became a boring routine for me.
When I finished school, (I did not have PHD..Ha..ha..) I started working, and making quite good money. God became further and further away from me. The Christian “rule” became a burden to me when I am in the secular world. So, I decide to tell God, I kind of need a break, Leave me alone for a while, let me “explore” and “tackle” the fascinating world for a while. I will be back soon.
Well, then I did what most young people do, enjoying life and use my time to work and make the most money as I can. Until one day, something happened to me, it was a big shock for me. I found out what I have been chasing for was not long lasting. What I treasured for was not secure. I have to ask myself, what the heck had I been doing?
It took me years and God’s MIRACLE to make me realize that my focus in my life was all wrong. God woke me up, HE told me that to pursue happiness is not wrong, but no matter how nice a car I am driving, how big the house I am living, or how update I was dressing, there is something deep inside me that is not happy. The emptiness cannot be fufill by material.
I read a book “ A Road less Travelled” Scott Peck. It helped me to think, do I want to take a road that the majority of people will take, or do I want to take a road that is less traveled? What should I choose to have a happier life? A meaningful life?
I have to say this is my personal subjective experience. But I can tell you honestly and confidently by quoting a verse from the Bible….
“My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you” Job 42:5
I can tell you that GOD really speaks to me, not from the BIBLE, but really speaks to me.
Again it is a very subjective experience. I do not want to argue. I am just telling you my personal experience.
IN summary, I can share what message God had told me.
Do whatever you are doing , do it with all your effort, for those things that you cannot change, live it to HIM. We are not GOD, GOD has a plan for everyone, all we have to do is try our best, and good result will come, not after our death, but results that we can see.
Isn’t it sounds like what you believe, “Fate”….
Alll the best Befroe I signed out,
I would like to add one more thought,
We all want instant result, I guess we all always say time is short, can't afford to waste. SO, we all want everyhting as fast as possible. This is probably the typical North Amercia culture..
Fast food is convience , but is it good to our health...?????
More and more I know the biggest lesson that we all have to learn is patient......
Westsider, You did not get yur PHD in a snap, right? From High school to undergrad to grad school, how many years, how many hours........ do you think you master what you are major in?
Give God and give yurself sometime, I am sure you will find the right answer.....
All the best But why would "the truth" necessarily give me something longlasting? why would it give me a purpose of life?
"The truth" might as well be void.
Something that gives me happiness might not necessarily be the truth, and I simply don't see the reason of claiming something to be real just because it makes you happy.
As for "time", I think it takes several years to learn about a religion. and i don't think there's enough time to learn about all of them, because of how ambiguous they can be.
Anyways, this has been a fruitful dicussion. At least I found out how you guys support your belief.
one more thought
We are the most entertained generation in history. Television sets pull in hundreds of channels; professional sports teams and pop music groups takes in (and spend) billions of dollars; millions of people own second and third homes for vacations in America; we get upset if we can’t get the latest computer games for Christmas.I believe the frantic search for entertainment is a symptom of something deeper. Some have suggested we are the most bored generation in history – and perhaps they are right. Down inside is an empty place in our hearts – a restlessness, a search for inner peace and tranquility-that will not go away. The irony is, the more we try to satisfy it, the less content we become.
Only from God through Jesus Christ can fill that empty space n our hearts, and He will as we open our lives to Him. But God’s word also points us to the future- to Heaven, where our restless hearts will be at peace. “ There remains, therefore, a rest for the people of God.”
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