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標題: Questions about the Bible [打印本頁]

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 06:58 AM 標題: Questions about the Bible

These are some of the questions I've been thinking for a long time.

1) The Bible talks about the absolute truth. The Bible said that human are not perfect, i.e. they can make mistake. People said that the authors were "under the guidance of god".

How can a mistake-prone author write about a book that talks about the *absolute* truth?

2) The Bible consists of 37 books in the Old Testament and 29 books in the New Testament. Over all, there are >4000 manuscripts.

How do people know that this is the 100% complete collection? And how do people know that each and every single one of the books are 100% correct?

3) The Bible has been translated by men. And the Bible said that human makes mistake.

How can people pick up a version, say English, and claim the *absolute* truth?

作者: x_integration_x 時間: 2005-8-17 11:04 AM 標題: Reply

Originally posted by westsider at 2005-8-17 06:58 AM:
These are some of the questions I'v...

After I read all three questions, I believe what you really want to ask is that human is not perfect and both you and me will make mistake.  Therefore, same to those who write the bible.  Is that true?

To answer your question, I first need to ask you.  Do you believe that there is a God?

A God who create the Universe.  A God that create the earth and it was so precisely done.  If the axis of the earth is 1 degree more or less, many locations in this planet would suffer from extreme heat and vice versa.

He also creates the right balance of air for us to breath.  If the ratio of Hydrogon Dioxide is more than it is right now... Guess what will happen?

Yes, you are correct that we as a human aren't perfect but with God guidance, everything is possible.  Since he can create the planet, the universe, DNA, among others so precisely, why can't he guide human to write out texts - bible - that is true?

Tony
B. Eng., M.A.Sc. in Engineering

[ Last edited by x_integration_x on 2005-8-17 at 11:09 AM ]

作者: imaimashi 時間: 2005-8-17 11:41 AM

yes.they may make mistake...but they write that by GOD's instructure.
If god ask them to write...do u think god allow they write with mistake?

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 11:46 AM

My question is about its claim of "absolute" truth, i.e. Zero error. If those who write the bible could be wrong, how can the literature claim the "absolute" truth?

I believe that our universe has certain underlying structure, but I am comfortable in talking about such structure only up to a certain accuracy.

The air does have the "right" balance of compounds, but such balance is "right" within certain accuracy. 0.01% more hydrogen dioxide is not going to hurt us.

Classical mechanics is "right" only above the de Brolie's wavelength. After that, quantum theory's accuracy is restricted by the Heisenberg's principle.

The "absolute" truth is a huge claim. The Bible makes such claim, and simultaneously says that the error-prone author is "correct under God's guidance". It really appears as a circular argument to me.

If I believe in God before believing in the Bible, and God himself is described by the Bible, it seems like my belief is based on nothing.

[ Last edited by westsider on 2005-8-17 at 11:48 AM ]

作者: imaimashi 時間: 2005-8-17 11:59 AM

due to my poor english,actually i dun realy know what is yr question
u mean someone who wrote bible can make mistake?
but u should know...GOD tell them to write bible,GOD should ensure no mistake when they are writing bible.

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 12:06 PM

Originally posted by imaimashi at 2005-8-17 11:59 AM:
due to my poor english,actually i d...

Sorry I dunno how to write/type Chinese.

But what you're saying is "Bible is correct because I believe in God". But what is God? God Himself is described by the Bible. So you would then say "I believe in God because the Bible of correct."

So it is a circular argument.

作者: snowbal 時間: 2005-8-17 12:10 PM

I tried to chip in what I know...

I guess you do have put some times in to the Bible...

Anyway, when the Chrostoan refers the Bible as the absolute truth, they are generally refer in three area.

1) Historic...
What the Bible record was totally true.. there was no making up of stories...
   Example: Moses lead the Jews out form Egypt and subside the water from the sea.
                  Noah's build the ark
                  Biblical Characters, David, Solomon, JPseph and of course Jesus

2) World
The Bilble descride the world has corrupt into multi-religion even from long long time to now.
   Example: Antheism ( No god)
                  Pamtheism ( Everything can be god)
                  Polythesim  ( There are more than one god)
                  Dualism  ( Everything has 2 sides, example, manvs woman, bright vs darkness, etc)
                  Humanism ( Man is the centre of everyhting)
                  Evolution ( Everything is evolved form nothing)

3) Religion
   1) Man was made from the image of God
   2) God gave man the rights to govern the world
   3) God gave man to have a relationship with God ( Animal cannot)
   4) The purpose of man's existence and the plan God has for mankind

These are the absolute truth of the Bible

When we read the BIble, I bet most of us do not know Greek nor Hebrew, sowe can only read the translation. How precise the translation is...  I would say 99.99%

Some of the words are not translatable. and some of them with hidden meaning and can only be understand with a lot of explantation...

But for Christian, every word that has included in the Bible are allowed by GOD. For those that finalized the content of the Bible, they had put lots of time in research, dedication and total devotion to God's word then they came out with this content of the Bible.

NO matter what kind of language you are reading, the truth is, the Bible records how God created man, and how man turned away from God, and God's plan for man and the destination of this world.

Even when God showed up in front of many people, man still choose not to believe in HIM. This has been true in the past, and in the present and will be in the future .

So, for those who want to have an open minded to study the BIBLE and willing to see how true or how wild this BOOK is.... I am sure that person will not be disappointed...  because my own expereince tells me that the Bible is very real and  the BIBLE is a channel God use to talk to us....

Try and you will be amaze ..........................

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 12:21 PM

Well, I was brought up in a Christian family. So I have read some Bible.

And the teaching of Christianity has always been about "faith". The arguments, including the above, have always been based on "faith".

When it came down to it, its always "God is real because the Bible is correct", and then "the Bible is correct because of God's pressence."

So do you believe in God or the Bible first?

Also, something 99.99% true is not "absolutely" true.

I am just looking for some rational basis for this whole thing.

[ Last edited by westsider on 2005-8-17 at 12:35 PM ]

作者: x_integration_x 時間: 2005-8-17 12:54 PM 標題: reply

Originally posted by westsider at 2005-8-17 12:21 PM:
Well, I was brought up in a Christi...

I doubt that anyone in this world would understand the truth if God let you know everything about Him. The Bible itself only cover a small portion of what God wants you to know. No matter you understand 100% or 99.9%, it is not the whole picture. You and I both don't have the knowledge and the brain power to understand the real truth.

The wonderful thing is that no matter how stupid we are, God still loves us and He died for us and gives us eternal life.

If you really want to know the answer, pray to God. The holy spirit will guide you to understand what you need to know. Meanwhile, buy some Christian's related textbook, tapes, or CD to enhance your knowledge of the bible.

[ Last edited by x_integration_x on 2005-8-17 at 12:56 PM ]

作者: imaimashi 時間: 2005-8-17 01:31 PM

點解d英文咁勁咖...?!

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 01:31 PM

Originally posted by x_integration_x at 2005-8-17 12:54 PM:

I doubt that anyone in this wor...

So how would you answer if I ask you "why do you believe in God?"

I mean, people believe in a religion until they switch to another one. People believed in the Crusade and Inquisition until... they believed no more. People believed in classical mechanics until experiments proved otherwise. Even engineers believed shrinking the ICs until 90nm the technology exhitbits tunneling effects.

Can one be comfortable in claiming to "believed in the absolute truth" without completely justify the "truth"?

I mean life is short. And peope dedicate their lives to their religion. What if you turn around and found out that life is just a bunch of random variables?

作者: imaimashi 時間: 2005-8-17 01:32 PM

人生永恆咖

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 01:38 PM

Originally posted by imaimashi at 2005-8-17 01:32 PM:
人生永恆咖

how do you know? because of the Bible said so.
why do you believe in the Bible? because God is real.
why do you believe in God? because what the Bible said is true.
why do you believe in the Bible? because God is real.
why do you believe in God? because what the Bible said is true.
.
.
.
and there's no better justification?

作者: imaimashi 時間: 2005-8-17 03:22 PM

why i believe god?since i have tried his presence
why i believe god?i believe bible
why i believe bible?something that is truth,and futher proving make me believe bible description of god is truth
not circular

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 03:31 PM

Originally posted by imaimashi at 2005-8-17 03:22 PM:
why i believe god?since i have tried his presence
why i believe god?i believe bible
why i believe bible?something that is truth,and futher proving make me believe bible description of god is truth
not circular

I am ASKING why is the Bible absolutely true? Don't just tell me that it is true.

作者: imaimashi 時間: 2005-8-17 03:37 PM

not absolutely
but it is quite believable.
believe or not just u choose!
if u ask why
i can only said,Noah,jesus,some prediction,so i think it is believable

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 03:45 PM

Originally posted by imaimashi at 2005-8-17 03:37 PM:
not absolutely
but it is quite believable.
believe or not just u choose!
if u ask why
i can only said,Noah,jesus,some prediction,so i think it is believable

I'm not gonna make a choice between beliving or not beliving, I'm not gonna make a decision until I am convinced either way.

So what you saying is, the Bible is "quite believable".

And you 100% believe that this "quite belivable" Bible is "absolutely true"?

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-17 06:15 PM

So, the best answer to the above questions is: faith?!

So I need to
1) "Experience God."
2) somehow make the connection between that experience and the Christian God
3) somehow make the connection between the Christian God and the complete validity of the Bible

is this actually what you guys did?

作者: snowbal 時間: 2005-8-17 09:54 PM

Westsider,

You concerns are very legitimate. I am sure many people has the same questions and many Christians have the same questions in the minds. I did too....  What happpen if there is no GOD, then what I believe all though my life were stupid..... As of today, there are no science or philosphy that can prove or disprove GOD's existence.

Let me tell you what my believe are base on :

1) If the whole world and universe are a sequence of random variables... if you look form the probability point of view, it will be a number like 2to the power of more than 30. A very very very small chance.
It would take even a bigger faith to believe this theory than believe the world was created by GOD.

2) Arguing BIBLE is absolute truth or "99.99 truth" ( I have to clarify that I mean 99.99% truth is the translation) is somewhat waste of time, because if you do not believe the BIBLE is the record that was recording history of man and the relationshiip between GOD and man. Then there is no point of going forward. For myself, the more I read the BIBLE, the more I found out how GOD intervene man's life through out human's history. The Bible did not only say how great of successful when those man follow GOD. Instead, it shows how weak human are, LOOK at Solomon, David, Jacob, most of them were so called great person in the BIBLE.. Look at what they have done in their whole life. The Bible did not hide their short fall. Instead it kept on stating human's shortfall.
If you can read the Bible with an open mind and look at it from a more historic and human sense ( Like reading a novel). You will find it very intersting.

3) I always think, if there is no GOD, then what are we doing on earth, why do we have to do what we ae doing now?  Life is so short? Why don't I enjoy my life while I can? Why do I have to be a god man? WHy do I have to abide all the rules set by human, both moral and legal rules? I should enjoy myself with my maximum ability.
It does not matter you have religious believeor not, but you have to admitt everyone has a moral standard...  Have you wonder why? WHy don't we just do whatever we like? If you see a girl you like on the street, why don't you just have sex with her on the street? Why didn't you just pee on the street when the nature call? WHy did we all feel shame when we did something stupid?
Why did we have conscience and not other living creature?

4) Believe in GOD, like a sounds, it is a believe, believe involve faith, something that cannot be caluclate or proof. However, it does involve experience. I firmly believe if anyone really want to experience GOD, he/she can and will. But man are too busy in other things, making a lving, having a better living, a lot of other things to chase, and not enough time...... And the main reason is, man wants to be their own god, we are all afraid if we let God intervene our life, there will be a lot of things that we can not do......... What happen if we slack off at work, or got drunk... and many many other things....... there will be a lot of rules that will bound us from enjoying our life......

I can tell you this, I felt the same too before...... but more I know theGOD we believe and His plan, the less concern and worries I have.... because  when you really read the BIBLE, GOD said it very clear, HE wants us all to haveJOY , not just after our earthly life, but NOW. BIBLE is not a book of laws, but rather a book of resource to find JOY and resource to live.

how do you know? because of the Bible said so.
why do you believe in the Bible? because God is real.
why do you believe in God? because what the Bible said is true.
why do you believe in the Bible? because God is real.
why do you believe in God? because what the Bible said is true.

What your argument here is not logical......

Do you believe in History of man? Do you believe the persons that write the history were telling the truth? Do you believe the existence of ROman Empire? Greek culture? Chinese? Indian? Were all those people that record their history are telling the truth?

In today's world, sometimes, we can't even believe what we see...... so in whatever way, everything involves a certain degree of faith......

In the BIBLE case, I believe everything that record in there is Truth. 100% truth. then is every word that we read really means literally, somehow, I have some reserve.......

For example,
1) Jesus said, forgive your enemy 70 of 7 times, so in another word, should we start revenge after that...  or is it a way of saying forgive those who mistread you...

2) Jesus always mention fig tree, is the fig tree a very special tree or is it just because fig tree is very common in middle east

3) David said in Psalm, " Hear my prayer, O LOrd; ... Do not hide your face from me... Turn your ear to me..."  DID David really see GOD turn his fac from him and cover HIS ears when David prayed? or is it a way of how David express when he prayed?

There are many many example .....

Make it short, if you read the Bible with a critical view and not even try to have a objective mind.. than the BIBLE means nothing to yu but just anoother book..... but if you have a open mind and willing to see whether the Word in the BIBLE is powerful or not, then I am sure you wll find amazing result......

ALL the best.............

作者: Gretzky 時間: 2005-8-18 08:21 AM

snowbal and westsider pals,

The oldest manuscript we can get our hands on is in Russia, in St. Petersberg. Combining with Arabic, Dead Sea scroll and other scripts...the Old Testament translation (in its original language, of course) is about 95% 'accurate'. There are 5% of the the translation that we can not confirm their absolute meaning. Linguists have tried but the Hebrew language (the ancient one, not the one you use in Israel today) is one we build from the pronounciation of the words...so uncertainities are common in such languages.

The New Testament is even more 'accurate'. The original copies (noticed copies, not the original writing) we have are even more precise than the ones we have for most classical greek manuscript. The 'accuracy' is about 99.8%.

Of course you would wonder what the 'missing' 0.2% and 5% are...let me tell you rougly what they are...they are mostly puncuations, tenses, definitions, numbers...but none of them have direct relationships with the essential part of the Christian faith (i.e. God's character, sin and the gospel).

Do I believe in the bible as a book of scripture? No. I only believe in what God has to say to me. He can speak to me via the bible, people, or anything else. While the scripture is a good source of understanding the Christian God, it doesn't mean God only speak thru the bible.

Experience of God is not a something we think of...like the lighting bolt or some sort of miracles...spirituality is ordinary...not necessary mystical....

I don't want to start another war here...if you are interested to keep in contact w/ me...you can get brightlee (the Sports board moderator) to get my msn or email.

Cheers,
Gretzky

作者: snowbal 時間: 2005-8-18 08:41 AM

Gretzky,

very nice of a summary,

not too many people will have the same insight like just what you have stated.. however,
glad to see someone with such an intellegent post

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-18 08:52 AM

1) If the whole world and universe are a sequence of random variables... if you look form the probability point of view, it will be a number like 2to the power of more than 30. A very very very small chance. It would take even a bigger faith to believe this theory than believe the world was created by GOD.

But do you have to believe in a view that require "less faith"? Can you just wait and see? I am waiting to see, and I am more comfortable with looking into the probability point of view.

In 1935, Einstein et al published the "EPR paradox". They tried to use some probabilistic interpretation to question the statistical nature of Quantum Mechanics. In 1964, Bell proved by the "Bell's Theorem", that EPR's probabilistic framwork is absolutely wrong.

I am more interested with something that can be rigorously verified/disproved. Simply because I would have a right/wrong answer at the end of the day.

2) Arguing BIBLE is absolute truth or "99.99 truth" ( I have to clarify that I mean 99.99% truth is the translation) is somewhat waste of time, because if you do not believe the BIBLE is the record that was recording history of man and the relationshiip between GOD and man. Then there is no point of going forward. For myself, the more I read the BIBLE, the more I found out how GOD intervene man's life through out human's history. The Bible did not only say how great of successful when those man follow GOD. Instead, it shows how weak human are, LOOK at Solomon, David, Jacob, most of them were so called great person in the BIBLE.. Look at what they have done in their whole life. The Bible did not hide their short fall. Instead it kept on stating human's shortfall.
If you can read the Bible with an open mind and look at it from a more historic and human sense ( Like reading a novel). You will find it very intersting.

Are you suggesting that the Bible must be interpreted subjectively? Then how would you know that your perception, and thus your belief, is 100% correct?

The subjective interpretation of the Bible led to bad things such as the Crusades and Inquisition. The believers didn't know that they're wrong back then. How do you know that you're right in the present?

To take a step further, one subjective interpretation is the determination of the "context" of the Bible. Where does it apply? "1984" by George Orwell is a fiction that correctly reflected the current state of Western Society and predicted future social changes. And a collection of Chinese literatures recorded Chinese history from way back. So, how would you take the Bible beyond a "good history book" and a "good observation of social evolution"?

Apparently the Bible has none or very little contradition to science or culture, because it has always been interpreted subjectively. One reason the Bible is accepted by republic, monarchical, and deomocratic society is that the Bible can be interpreted subjectively to fit what people thinks.

3) I always think, if there is no GOD, then what are we doing on earth, why do we have to do what we ae doing now? Life is so short? Why don't I enjoy my life while I can? Why do I have to be a god man? WHy do I have to abide all the rules set by human, both moral and legal rules? I should enjoy myself with my maximum ability. It does not matter you have religious believeor not, but you have to admitt everyone has a moral standard...

Religions have heavy influence on the moral and legal standard of our society. Just look at gay marriage in America. And moral standard is directly affected by your up-bringing. Most people believe in what their parents told them.

The "moral standard" you're abided to has nothing to do with religion. If you go back 1000 years in China, pre-maritial sex is against anyone's "moral standard". But if you go to Amsterdam right now, I bet every teenager is looking for sex.

WHy don't we just do whatever we like?

Alot of people do, but most religious peope don't.

Why did we have conscience and not other living creature?

Even if conscience exist, how can you conclusively link it to God and not other things?

4) Believe in GOD, like a sounds, it is a believe, believe involve faith, something that cannot be caluclate or proof. However, it does involve experience. I firmly believe if anyone really want to experience GOD, he/she can and will. But man are too busy in other things, making a lving, having a better living, a lot of other things to chase, and not enough time...... And the main reason is, man wants to be their own god, we are all afraid if we let God intervene our life, there will be a lot of things that we can not do......... What happen if we slack off at work, or got drunk... and many many other things....... there will be a lot of rules that will bound us from enjoying our life......

I can tell you this, I felt the same too before...... but more I know theGOD we believe and His plan, the less concern and worries I have.... because when you really read the BIBLE, GOD said it very clear, HE wants us all to haveJOY , not just after our earthly life, but NOW. BIBLE is not a book of laws, but rather a book of resource to find JOY and resource to live.

But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?

Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.

And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.

Do you believe in History of man? Do you believe the persons that write the history were telling the truth? Do you believe the existence of ROman Empire? Greek culture? Chinese? Indian? Were all those people that record their history are telling the truth?

I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.

In today's world, sometimes, we can't even believe what we see...... so in whatever way, everything involves a certain degree of faith......

But why you have to believe in something? I have THREE options: 1)to believe 2) to believe against 3) not to make a decision. I have THREE, not TWO.

In the BIBLE case, I believe everything that record in there is Truth.

But can you tell me why? I want to know.

Make it short, if you read the Bible with a critical view and not even try to have a objective mind.. than the BIBLE means nothing to yu but just anoother book..... but if you have a open mind and willing to see whether the Word in the BIBLE is powerful or not, then I am sure you wll find amazing result......

I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?

Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??

Thank you very much.

作者: brightlee 時間: 2005-8-18 09:14 AM

Remember one thing:
Christianity is not ONLY talking about RELIGIONS
it's talking about relationship between God and us.

May GOD bless everything.
westsider, that's good to see you are opening your heart and asks your questions to GOD, I am sure GOD is really appericated your reaction, keep going.

imaimashi: if you have MSN/ICQ, pls leave it to me, Iwould like to chat to u

Love in HIM,
Bright

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-18 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Gretzky at 2005-8-18 08:21 AM:
snowbal and westsider pals,

The ...

I am not starting a war. I am asking questions because I care. I won't spend all these time typing things up otherwise.

I think this is a good answer to question 3).

I am interested in knowing why people believe in the Chrisitian God based on these collection of scriptures.

But if you look at the Dead Sea scrolls for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls
The Dead Sea scrolls were not even 100% about Christianity. I mean there are multiple religions based on portion of these scriptures.

So in the framework of Christianity, how did people determine which scripture to include into the Bible? Did Bible/God indicate which scriputre to include? and how?

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-18 09:55 AM

Well I apologize if my words sounding too harsh.

I mean I know these are tough questions. And some of them are taught in grad school in Dvinity or something. But I don't have all the time in the world to do that, so I'm just interested in some quick answers....

作者: brightlee 時間: 2005-8-18 10:27 AM

Originally posted by westsider at 2005-8-18 11:55:
Well I apologize if my words soundi...

That's ok, I could understand you are trying to know and learn things
Sometimes, we need to slow down, and open a room, to let GOD talk to us in His way
I am glad that you are starting to seek His helps
Be strong and wait........

Bright

作者: snowbal 時間: 2005-8-18 10:43 AM

Quote:
The subjective interpretation of the Bible led to bad things such as the Crusades and Inquisition. The believers didn't know that they're wrong back then. How do you know that you're right in the present?

Response:
You are exactly right, a lot of people using religion to pursue their own personal interest, that is why in USA and many other western countries state in their constitution religion and political  must be separated

If someone use religion to achieve their personal agenda, then condemn the religion is not right.

Quote:
Religions have heavy influence on the moral and legal standard of our society. Just look at gay marriage in America. And moral standard is directly affected by your up-bringing. Most people believe in what their parents told them.

Response:
SO, you think our moral standard is totally influence by religion. I think it is a little subjective. However, it is true that no matter where you live, in the modern world or in very remote area in Africa. All human will in one way or the other worship a god….  Although sometimes they do not know what they are worshiping. In either way, all human does have a very basic moral standard to govern.

Quote:
WHy don't we just do whatever we like?

Alot of people do, but most religious people don't.

Response:
I do not agree on that, like my example stated in my last quote….

If someone offend you and you will just go and punch the person out??

Will you do something to embrass yourself in front of a lot of people?

Quote:
Why did we have conscience and not other living creature?

Even if conscience exist, how can you conclusively link it to God and not other things?

Response:

Now, I based this from the BIBLE, God ssid HE made man according to HIS image, and gave us a conscience mind just like HIM.
Of course, for you to accept this mean you have to admit the BIBLE is true. It may be a little tough for you.

Quote:

But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?

Response:
Christianity does not require 100% change I your values.
Rather,  as a Christian, we can do things that we know it that is right and not doing things that is against our principal with EASE and peace of mind.

Quote:
Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.

Response:
This is a very shallow view on Christianity. God promised Joy , that means we will find JOY on earth, we will enjoy all the things just as everyone else. But one thing different, As a Christian, we believe God will take care of us. It does not mean Christian will not face suffering, but rather, God will provide a way out, Again, this is a very personal experience. For people that have doubt in God’s power. It will be tough to accept this fact.

Quote:
And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.

Response:
I think what you raise here, is pure for argument sake…ha ha..

Quote:

  Quote:
Do you believe in History of man? Do you believe the persons that write the history were telling the truth? Do you believe the existence of ROman Empire? Greek culture? Chinese? Indian? Were all those people that record their history are telling the truth?

I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.

Response:

I think this is purely for argument sake, if you have doubt on everything, I guess you must be very skeptic on everything….

Quote:
  Quote:
In the BIBLE case, I believe everything that record in there is Truth.

But can you tell me why? I want to know.

Response:

All I can tell you is my own personal experience,

1) I believe this world is created by someone that is much more intellegent than human
2) Compare to other religion, Christianity is the only religion that based on history and can be traced back with accuracy
3) The more I read the Bible, the more I found that the astonishing truth

Quote:

I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?

Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??

Response:

You are very right, you can take any book and right a review with your own subjective  view….  You can do it with the BIBLE too,  DID you try to do that? See whether  you can found some flaw in the BIBLE…… But make sure,  do a through research….

As for me, I have utmost confidence that you will fail, try to proof me wrong….

Best of wish

作者: x_integration_x 時間: 2005-8-18 11:20 AM

Originally posted by westsider at 2005-8-17 01:31 PM:

So how would you answer if I as...

To simply answer your question "Why do you believe in God?"

Because I see how God molds me in everyday of my life.  I was a failure when I was young, I skipped classes and hanged around with friends.  Six years ago, I was lucky enough that God provided me an opportunity to study at college.  But, I didn't cherish the chance God gave me.  I got kick out at last.

At that time, I was so lost...  I can't get a job because I am lack of education.  I don't know what to do.  My parent was so worry about me at that time.  At that time, many people told me to pray and pray...... I tried and tired.... God gave me no response.  I hate God at that time because He ignored me so badly even when I pray 10 times a day.

God tought me a big lesson thru this incident.  He wants me to learn how to concentrate and focus on my works.

To make the long story short, God provides me an opportunity to study at the University.  I received scholarship every years and unexpected research opportunities throughout my undergrad. study.  At last, I received around 12,000 HKD scholarship for my graduate study.

God loves us so much if you believe in Him.  He makes everything possible.

[ Last edited by x_integration_x on 2005-8-18 at 11:28 AM ]

作者: brightlee 時間: 2005-8-18 12:10 PM

Thanks for your sharing, Tony.....
westider, I would suggest you to do one thing:
Think about the relationship between you and GOD.
This may help you to answer your questions in your heart
Bright

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-18 12:50 PM

Originally posted by x_integration_x at 2005-8-18 11:20 AM:

To simply answer your questio...

I see. Thanks. The interesting thing is that, I have quite an opposite expereince.

I was born and raised in a Christian family. Moved oversea and skipped two grades. In highschool, I found something wrong with my life as I found out the difference between the Chrisitan community and the general community. The single-minded small community lifestyle in the Church didn't make as much sense as the cynical, critical, and rational thinking of the general public. I can only learn from mistake, so I went on self-destruction, failed two years of highschool, and went back to normal in my acamdemic progress. Then I finsihed my undergrad study with a breeze and proceeded to my PhD now.

There were definitely tough times, and in my lowest moments I did think about God. But thing is, I was brought up in this pure Christian propaganda from age zero, and I am not sure if such feeling is indeed the "calling of God", or if it is just a desperation cry for this "safety net" that has been engraved into my mind since I was a child.

I have learnt to accept that fact that things happen, be it good or bad. And when bad things happened to me, I don't even look for an answer. I'll just tell myself that "sh1t happens".

That's why I am now looking for rational ways of validating Christianity or other believes. And I think that the "truth" should be validate from multiple starting points.

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-18 01:32 PM

Originally posted by snowbal at 2005-8-18 10:43 AM:
Response:
You are exactly right, a lot of people using religion to pursue their own personal interest, that is why in USA and many other western countries state in their constitution religion and political must be separated

If someone use religion to achieve their personal agenda, then condemn the religion is not right.

I am not even worrying about other people. My worry is that, if subjective interpretation led to mistake, how do I know that my own subjective interpretation is correct?

Response:
SO, you think our moral standard is totally influence by religion. I think it is a little subjective. However, it is true that no matter where you live, in the modern world or in very remote area in Africa. All human will in one way or the other worship a god…. Although sometimes they do not know what they are worshiping. In either way, all human does have a very basic moral standard to govern.

What I'm saying is that moral values are results of life experince. How can one really isolate the "common" moral values?

If I put two new-born babies into seperate, isolated islands, and bring them back to the society after the age of 25. If I don't educate then in anyway, are they going to feel bad for robbing people, having sex in the public, or even killing people? I cannot answer this question.

Quote:
WHy don't we just do whatever we like?
Alot of people do, but most religious people don't.

Response:
I do not agree on that, like my example stated in my last quote….

If someone offend you and you will just go and punch the person out??

Will you do something to embrass yourself in front of a lot of people?

I would. I kicked alot asses, and I did alot of stupid things in my life. I don't feel bad about them. When I look back, I just think that it is part of my life experience.

Quote:
But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?

Response:
Christianity does not require 100% change I your values.
Rather, as a Christian, we can do things that we know it that is right and not doing things that is against our principal with EASE and peace of mind.

Yes. Beliving in certain principals and living by them will give you peace of mind. But accepting fate also gave me peace of mind.

Quote:
Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.

Response:
This is a very shallow view on Christianity. God promised Joy , that means we will find JOY on earth, we will enjoy all the things just as everyone else. But one thing different, As a Christian, we believe God will take care of us. It does not mean Christian will not face suffering, but rather, God will provide a way out, Again, this is a very personal experience. For people that have doubt in God’s power. It will be tough to accept this fact.

I totally understand what you're saying. Going to my very first message, I am looking for the "truth", not "joy". If the truth gives me joy, fine. If it brings me grief, fine.

Quote:
And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.

Response:
I think what you raise here, is pure for argument sake…ha ha..

You are completely incorrect. This is my personal philosophy.

I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.

Response:

I think this is purely for argument sake, if you have doubt on everything, I guess you must be very skeptic on everything….

You are completely incorrect. This is my personal philosophy. I am skeptical towards everything, including myself. I learn things in generalized universial framework, everything has to be correct and consistent.That's why I averaged C+ in all my humanities electives in undergrad.

Quote:
I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?

Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??

Response:

You are very right, you can take any book and right a review with your own subjective view…. You can do it with the BIBLE too, DID you try to do that? See whether you can found some flaw in the BIBLE…… But make sure, do a through research….

As for me, I have utmost confidence that you will fail, try to proof me wrong….

As I ask you, is subjective interpretation the only way of reading the Bible? If so there is no way of finding "flaws" in the Bible. Because whatever you do, you can also say that "oh, this figuratively means that". But at the same time, I can also make a lot of subjective interpreations that are wrong, but these don't invalidate the Bible either.

Oh the otherhand, if there is some objective ways of looking at the Bible, I can at least have a true/false answer. That's what I'm looking for right now.

作者: Gretzky 時間: 2005-8-18 01:43 PM

Westsider,

Since you are doing your PhD. (good to know someone is on the same level!) I would recommend this volume to you.

"Truth is Stranger than it used to be" by Walsh and Middleton.

From what you have written...you probably grew up in a fundamentalist Ethnic Church background with v. little regards to the rational side of faith. And you got it right on the money...there a lots of propaganda from Churches these days and they seperate beliefs from rational/academic realm. It probably has to do with the anti-intellectualism in Evangelicalism since 1860s in UK and Eastern states of US.

But the interesting thing around the posts in this thread is...I can sense you are still very much in the 'searching' and 'validating' mood for the so called Christian faith.

I am not asking you to go to church or read the bible. In fact, I am asking you not to attend church and read the bible (if you are still doing it) for now. Just take a few days into the woods and ask God (if there's one..and a Christian one) to show you some signs so you can be relieved from your struggles.

I left the church when I was 14...took me 2 yrs and a major car accident to think about what is that I thought I believed and what I should do about faith.

Like I said...if you wanna talk privately...I am more than happy to chat via email or msn...Brightlee has my contact...you can get him to PM you.

:-) Gretz.

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-18 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Gretzky at 2005-8-18 01:43 PM:
Westsider,

Since you are doing y...

Thank you. So what field are you in?

I don't think the level of education really matters here because I am not specialized on this particular subject, and I don't know more than anyone here. I'll check that book out.

I don't use MSN/ICQ. If you want to contact me, send an email to

[email protected]

This is my spamming decoy. I will get your email from there and verify afterwards.

作者: snowbal 時間: 2005-8-18 10:16 PM

Westsider

I think what you are arguing all alone is how can you trust the BIBLE, Is it worth believing?

It is very interesting that for you and Gretzky both went through some personal experience and then start thinking about the meaning of life.

For Christian, we will view it as a wakening call from God, because for most of us, Christian or not, we are somehow too busy in our life. Study, work, social life, we just do not have time to sit down and think about what or where we are heading and the purpose of living.

I am a little different form you in terms of background wise, but I too grew up in a Christian church environment. I had the same questions that you have. I tried to ask for an answer, but somehow no one seems to be able to answer my questions. Most of them gave me standard answer. It cannot convince me that what I believe is true. So, going to church or reading Bible, praying became a boring routine for me.

When I finished school, (I did not have PHD..Ha..ha..) I started working, and making quite good money. God became further and further away from me. The Christian “rule” became a burden to me when I am in the secular world. So, I decide to tell God, I kind of need a break, Leave me alone for a while, let me “explore” and “tackle” the fascinating world for a while. I will be back soon.

Well, then I did what most young people do, enjoying life and use my time to work and make the most money as I can. Until one day, something happened to me, it was a big shock for me. I found out what I have been chasing for was not long lasting. What I treasured for was not secure. I have to ask myself, what the heck had I been doing?

It took me years and God’s MIRACLE to make me realize that my focus in my life was all wrong. God woke me up, HE told me that to pursue happiness is not wrong, but no matter how nice a car I am driving, how big the house I am living, or how update I was dressing, there is something deep inside me that is not happy. The emptiness cannot be fufill by material.

I read a book “ A Road less Travelled” Scott Peck. It helped me to think, do I want to take a road that the majority of people will take, or do I want to take a road that is less traveled? What should I choose to have a happier life? A meaningful life?

I have to say this is my personal subjective experience. But I can tell you honestly and confidently by quoting a verse from the Bible….
“My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you” Job 42:5

I can tell you that GOD really speaks to me, not from the BIBLE, but really speaks to me.
Again it is a very subjective experience. I do not want to argue. I am just telling you my personal experience.

IN summary, I can share what message God had told me.

Do whatever you are doing , do it with all your effort, for those things that you cannot change, live it to HIM. We are not GOD, GOD has a plan for everyone, all we have to do is try our best, and good result will come, not after our death, but results that we can see.

Isn’t it sounds like what you believe, “Fate”….

Alll the best

作者: snowbal 時間: 2005-8-18 11:14 PM

Befroe I signed out,

I would like to add one more thought,

We all want instant result, I guess we all always say time is short, can't afford to waste. SO, we all want everyhting as fast as possible. This is probably the typical North Amercia culture..

Fast food is convience , but is it good to our health...?????

More and more I know the biggest lesson that we all have to learn is patient......

Westsider, You did not get yur PHD in a snap, right? From High school to undergrad to grad school, how many years, how many hours........ do you think you master what you are major in?

Give God and give yurself sometime, I am sure you will find the right answer.....

All the best

作者: westsider 時間: 2005-8-23 08:15 PM

But why would "the truth" necessarily give me something longlasting? why would it give me a purpose of life?

"The truth" might as well be void.

Something that gives me happiness might not necessarily be the truth, and I simply don't see the reason of claiming something to be real just because it makes you happy.

As for "time", I think it takes several years to learn about a religion. and i don't think there's enough time to learn about all of them, because of how ambiguous they can be.

Anyways, this has been a fruitful dicussion. At least I found out how you guys support your belief.

作者: snowbal 時間: 2005-9-1 12:28 AM 標題: one more thought

We are the most entertained generation in history. Television sets pull in hundreds of channels; professional sports teams and pop music groups takes in (and spend) billions of dollars; millions of people own second and third homes for vacations in America; we get upset if we can’t get the latest computer games for Christmas.

I believe the frantic search for entertainment is a symptom of something deeper. Some have suggested we are the most bored generation in history – and perhaps they are right. Down inside is an empty place in our hearts – a restlessness, a search for inner peace and tranquility-that will not go away. The irony is, the more we try to satisfy it, the less content we become.
Only from God through Jesus Christ can fill that empty space n our hearts, and He will as we open our lives to Him. But God’s word also points us to the future- to Heaven, where our restless hearts will be at peace. “ There remains, therefore, a rest for the people of God.”

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