Gretzky

Originally posted by runrun at 2005-4-4 06:37 AM:
$ J1 |3 z9 K2 a; |. v; l; k* A  C5 t, O0 z8 ^; o

: |( J. I! o! r) s8 g9 A6 u為什麼 2nd part 有問題而 ...

5 z  c0 O' Y* w& ~/ Z/ J% O' r) ?
* Y3 V4 G" l; u8 ^) o+ M8 G) s
To respond to your question....( ^+ B4 s; ]6 E# b: j5 L. C: q

" L1 k! n* r& z& q( a1) Unbelievers can only use the philosophical approach to tackle the ontological arugments here. Since they don't necessary buy into the revelations (at least not the illumination part), it is impossible to try to understand God (noticed the use of the language) from theological view points. This applies to even scholarly work by professors in secular institutions like Yale and Harvard (unless in the Divinity Schools).& K" M% b" f6 A4 p; z

' u; w$ J9 G  @/ l! x2) This article is actually a poor piece in terms of logic. It contains some fallacies and would never take place in a philosophy class. Even Bertard Russell's book "Why I am not a Christian" failed to give us a strong argument for the non-existence of God. If a philosopher professor claims he/she has good ground on the non-existence of God, I urge you not to take his/her classes.! j2 ]; W, t( W8 U( N! |

4 q3 k' q4 p( C. C. C3 B! [The crisis Christianity faces today is not the existence of the Being. The irrevelancy of the faith is more of a serious problem than the essence of the faith. The inclusiveness of postmodernity is the biggest threat.
& ~* n# t' u' i! @9 i8 N6 ^8 X3 [% W9 T# j% L8 |: I: _
Let's move on with some real issues....

Gretzky

Originally posted by 2niper at 2005-4-4 03:47 PM:- D, E% [% r5 E+ g
i jsut wanan say sm ...

- z& b$ D' P# N. E  E# w% o! ?/ L6 O$ J! ~2 E% u9 ^, k
Dear 2niper,1 ^& `+ A0 E* v
( [3 u+ v  B  [# y6 ?
The presupposition in which your statement is based on the fact that:
2 ^6 N1 D: O' B( |% X; n1)A supernatural being (big g God or small g God) is supposed to be loving and kind. 9 i0 ?! M8 [* w3 F/ k, a
2)Mankind (noticed I do not use masculine pronoun) is good in nature.* C4 E0 i9 `* ]! c' }' z
3)The Hebrew and --- perception of heaven (peace and restful) and hell (chaotic and painful)' D7 [5 o7 T! X9 j

5 |3 W- t) w& q+ ~- J4 DRight?. D7 B$ V. u, a9 a; D) l

9 j1 H8 M* E; f  Z* F7 h( w: X- aI have a short story for you :-)
# r# l  D# \0 B2 C3 o
5 W* I  t: ]6 f8 \& {A farmowner needed some workers to work on his field. So he took off to the market in the morning and hire a few people. They work hard for the entire day under the intense heat and harsh working conditions. When the day was about to end the farmowner realized  he needed a few extra hands to finish up the work, so he took off for the market again and  hire two more people.* ]3 {9 F$ L) V+ \
8 k% x7 ]( y; H0 m6 r# a6 ^
The day ended and the workers queue up for their wages. The farmowner paid each one of them a gold coin for their sweat and labour. One worker came up to the farmerowner and asked, "Master, don't I deserve more than a gold coin? I have worked since daybreak and my wages is one gold coin. These people came in late in the afternoon and worked for a couple of hours. And yet you gave them 1 gold coin as well! Isn't it fair?"
0 \0 K; F1 @2 Z7 ]& }, h& f3 S
' ]1 l3 Q2 z( IThe farmowner replied, "Didn't we agree on the wages before you start?" "I agreed to pay you a gold coin for a day's work, and you agree on it. You got your wages. How I pay for others is my business. The field is mine and I should have the right to pay others whatever I like."

Gretzky

Originally posted by austin666 at 2005-4-5 12:13 AM:% P9 G2 O$ d/ c" h
我係一個連自己都吳信的人
3 X) T# Q7 e$ i: O3 k又點會將自己交付俾上帝呢
6 m, @- }- G1 p/ K道理我知道好多只係做吳到
* s0 y$ X+ l% @  \2 _, \呢D就係做人的悲哀

( W+ |% M1 q2 ]0 f  u1 z' J1 u% A: A+ d4 u+ I; B
Nobody says you have to do it to win salvation.....the notion of 'giving yourself to God' is the biggest cliche and Christian jargon of all time!
+ t: g, ?9 i2 [# |) W0 Q' e$ {" b0 Y' i( {
Nobody can give himself/herself to God....these are Puritian theologies....( v8 F( _* j$ ~4 `5 G3 T1 t7 _
1 b- q5 p) A- I& g/ h% l
mr. austin 666, our pneumatology is a bit off...but I admire your willingness to dialouge....
! K5 E9 m9 W) o; ?0 X3 j+ X  ~8 p+ C/ h, b
struggle with him and try to understand him.... that's my journey....may it be yours one day.

Gretzky

Originally posted by DXneo at 2005-4-5 11:42 AM:! G# \( @/ }1 C/ c$ j% J% A$ }
建立在虚假,謊言上的教派,不信也沒損失 ...

( R8 U" @7 r0 R- H( x
: Y3 p( q3 q( D/ O  m* |% W2 G4 [
What a statement we have here?  s4 v! P, x. d# C8 n
; N) W( @9 z! R' H( h
Just wondering, what do you know about the syntax of ancient Greek, Hebrew and the history of the canonization of the bible? . T* }, S4 g3 Y0 G& M) a9 h
' a- Q# o7 m: A7 r
I do agree with the bloodshed part....and my respond that this was posted a page ago in this thread.1 ^* v9 o/ e7 c# ^

- g2 j9 \6 b8 X' b/ f- yLooking forward to see the support of your thesis. mr/ms Dxneo; @; N; O# Z. w! f' {- s
: ?7 W! {" K! H; |" l
:cool:
4 Q. P& D; i% S- l8 C6 q/ N& E2 _* g4 l' j, L0 e
[ Last edited by Gretzky on 2005-4-5 at 02:15 PM ]

Gretzky

Originally posted by ilove---you at 2005-4-5 07:06 PM:" H8 G  @/ }' c8 @! {
.............信耶穌... ...

- ~2 v$ c- j+ H+ }- @Regarding the resurrection....% L% e0 Z4 ]) d0 ]) l% B
5 F! r- l6 s6 f3 d
Actually even the Roman government had refereces of the resurrection account of Jesus. The great historian Josephus did some sociological and religious studies in the 1st Century...." x; f% O4 J& \. `
* |" u% \4 Y% K) }+ r* r, S
You don't have to believe...but take a look at the historical documents before putting some horrendous claims, please.

Gretzky

Originally posted by DXneo at 2005-4-5 05:47 PM:; ~1 z( j8 k' q- B, A
"他們都見證了一個人生命的轉 ...

+ l, R6 U4 O6 Q8 M& x& I+ j$ o
: {' Q+ |; O& c3 g" u2 e( `+ D7 y0 m5 J$ @
hey...never ask u to believe...just wanna have some dialouge je....! V+ R, T: `& ], [" j$ H9 v
' W3 y2 L4 a% P8 K0 X: M, [
Gee.....

Gretzky

Originally posted by tung kin wah at 2005-4-6 06:10 AM:
  w8 G6 |. f) l( t+ w. ^# wIt is very easy to  ...

" t; [% ]# A( _& B% L9 ~
& Z2 t5 E3 A" N/ iMr. Tung,
* R" D& D5 @1 e/ o2 l: G6 H+ V7 {4 _1 P7 v# |3 u
Nice of your words. Thank you. Nonetheless, you can see a few folks here aren't interested in discussions at all. They want to express their heart-felt emotions, but not discussions. :-)
* D: ?$ [  i6 Z$ E& }
$ C9 t# W) X9 N7 A1 j1 ]The fragmentation of the last pages proved that....
' i* O% w0 n$ A
3 R: p+ I% s4 `" m% EGretz.

Gretzky

Hmm...seems like this topic has hooked all the Christians to 'come out"!5 }- ]# n" _! y: ~6 M

/ D( P: d% j; |, C! }7 _7 eI am shocked to see exegetical and hermenutical issues mentioned. Good thinking, brethrens!% `9 O/ U$ @( T4 T  K6 H5 M
6 b+ c4 V( g$ j0 V& c
thx to brightlee for the determination to bridge the gaps.....

Gretzky

brother brightlee and others,
; E( r* u; H! `0 q( ~
( l0 [0 b( n4 AFor those of us who are Christians and have been monitoring the development, this continuous saga has given us a good, accurate read of what the postmodern perception of the Christian (Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox tradition) faith. Reading the comments is already a treat! Most of us are probably too nice to do that face to face. We should be grateful for the comments everyone made here." t" D. X2 A, c! k$ E+ B4 x
# V4 A4 G8 R; k2 n# D% W' t  g
And for those of us who are skeptical of the Christian religion, I still believe this was good cognitive exercise. Sure the expressions of opinions were mere crashes of different worldviews, but other than a few who barked occassionally, we had some good exchanges. 5 T9 V9 C' E' u- n' S
3 K, N7 N9 |$ N( _% w/ D/ x
And for those of us who dispise Christianity, I hope the forum allowed you to air out your furstrations as you were 'persecuted' by these religious fanatics!
) [6 b8 s* @+ n9 ~1 u2 s5 X4 t7 s
5 l! {9 D- ~  w! ^0 K) tAnd lastly for those bystanders who doen't care: What the heck are you doing here? ;, l+ s* Z  F. g# p; }
7 ^5 g* {7 `4 N
Wayne