westsider

Originally posted by Gretzky at 2005-8-18 08:21 AM:
snowbal and westsider pals,

The ...

I am not starting a war. I am asking questions because I care. I won't spend all these time typing things up otherwise.

I think this is a good answer to question 3).

I am interested in knowing why people believe in the Chrisitian God based on these collection of scriptures.

But if you look at the Dead Sea scrolls for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls
The Dead Sea scrolls were not even 100% about Christianity. I mean there are multiple religions based on portion of these scriptures.

So in the framework of Christianity, how did people determine which scripture to include into the Bible? Did Bible/God indicate which scriputre to include? and how?

westsider

Well I apologize if my words sounding too harsh.

I mean I know these are tough questions. And some of them are taught in grad school in Dvinity or something. But I don't have all the time in the world to do that, so I'm just interested in some quick answers....

westsider

Originally posted by x_integration_x at 2005-8-18 11:20 AM:



To simply answer your questio...

I see. Thanks. The interesting thing is that, I have quite an opposite expereince.

I was born and raised in a Christian family. Moved oversea and skipped two grades. In highschool, I found something wrong with my life as I found out the difference between the Chrisitan community and the general community. The single-minded small community lifestyle in the Church didn't make as much sense as the cynical, critical, and rational thinking of the general public. I can only learn from mistake, so I went on self-destruction, failed two years of highschool, and went back to normal in my acamdemic progress. Then I finsihed my undergrad study with a breeze and proceeded to my PhD now.

There were definitely tough times, and in my lowest moments I did think about God. But thing is, I was brought up in this pure Christian propaganda from age zero, and I am not sure if such feeling is indeed the "calling of God", or if it is just a desperation cry for this "safety net" that has been engraved into my mind since I was a child.

I have learnt to accept that fact that things happen, be it good or bad. And when bad things happened to me, I don't even look for an answer. I'll just tell myself that "sh1t happens".

That's why I am now looking for rational ways of validating Christianity or other believes. And I think that the "truth" should be validate from multiple starting points.

westsider

Originally posted by snowbal at 2005-8-18 10:43 AM:
Response:
You are exactly right, a lot of people using religion to pursue their own personal interest, that is why in USA and many other western countries state in their constitution religion and political  must be separated

If someone use religion to achieve their personal agenda, then condemn the religion is not right.

I am not even worrying about other people. My worry is that, if subjective interpretation led to mistake, how do I know that my own subjective interpretation is correct?

Response:
SO, you think our moral standard is totally influence by religion. I think it is a little subjective. However, it is true that no matter where you live, in the modern world or in very remote area in Africa. All human will in one way or the other worship a god….  Although sometimes they do not know what they are worshiping. In either way, all human does have a very basic moral standard to govern.

What I'm saying is that moral values are results of life experince. How can one really isolate the "common" moral values?

If I put two new-born babies into seperate, isolated islands, and bring them back to the society after the age of 25. If I don't educate then in anyway, are they going to feel bad for robbing people, having sex in the public, or even killing people? I cannot answer this question.

Quote:
WHy don't we just do whatever we like?
Alot of people do, but most religious people don't.

Response:
I do not agree on that, like my example stated in my last quote….

If someone offend you and you will just go and punch the person out??

Will you do something to embrass yourself in front of a lot of people?

I would. I kicked alot asses, and I did alot of stupid things in my life. I don't feel bad about them. When I look back, I just think that it is part of my life experience.

Quote:
But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?

Response:
Christianity does not require 100% change I your values.
Rather,  as a Christian, we can do things that we know it that is right and not doing things that is against our principal with EASE and peace of mind.

Yes. Beliving in certain principals and living by them will give you peace of mind. But accepting fate also gave me peace of mind.

Quote:
Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.

Response:
This is a very shallow view on Christianity. God promised Joy , that means we will find JOY on earth, we will enjoy all the things just as everyone else. But one thing different, As a Christian, we believe God will take care of us. It does not mean Christian will not face suffering, but rather, God will provide a way out, Again, this is a very personal experience. For people that have doubt in God’s power. It will be tough to accept this fact.

I totally understand what you're saying. Going to my very first message, I am looking for the "truth", not "joy". If the truth gives me joy, fine. If it brings me grief, fine.

Quote:
And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.

Response:
I think what you raise here, is pure for argument sake…ha ha..

You are completely incorrect. This is my personal philosophy.

I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.

Response:

I think this is purely for argument sake, if you have doubt on everything, I guess you must be very skeptic on everything….

You are completely incorrect. This is my personal philosophy. I am skeptical towards everything, including myself. I learn things in generalized universial framework, everything has to be correct and consistent.That's why I averaged C+ in all my humanities electives in undergrad.

Quote:
I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?

Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??

Response:

You are very right, you can take any book and right a review with your own subjective  view….  You can do it with the BIBLE too,  DID you try to do that? See whether  you can found some flaw in the BIBLE…… But make sure,  do a through research….

As for me, I have utmost confidence that you will fail, try to proof me wrong….

As I ask you, is subjective interpretation the only way of reading the Bible? If so there is no way of finding "flaws" in the Bible. Because whatever you do, you can also say that "oh, this figuratively means that". But at the same time, I can also make a lot of subjective interpreations that are wrong, but these don't invalidate the Bible either.

Oh the otherhand, if there is some objective ways of looking at the Bible, I can at least have a true/false answer. That's what I'm looking for right now.

westsider

Originally posted by Gretzky at 2005-8-18 01:43 PM:
Westsider,

Since you are doing y...

Thank you. So what field are you in?

I don't think the level of education really matters here because I am not specialized on this particular subject, and I don't know more than anyone here. I'll check that book out.

I don't use MSN/ICQ. If you want to contact me, send an email to

[email protected]

This is my spamming decoy. I will get your email from there and verify afterwards.

westsider

But why would "the truth" necessarily give me something longlasting? why would it give me a purpose of life?

"The truth" might as well be void.

Something that gives me happiness might not necessarily be the truth, and I simply don't see the reason of claiming something to be real just because it makes you happy.

As for "time", I think it takes several years to learn about a religion. and i don't think there's enough time to learn about all of them, because of how ambiguous they can be.

Anyways, this has been a fruitful dicussion. At least I found out how you guys support your belief.