justin_lun

我想smsboy網友並沒有明白我對自由意志的理解。自由意志提供的是選擇權﹐也就是對發生的每一件事﹐當事人都可以作出自己認為適合的選擇﹐而不會受神的力量強行阻止。但請認清一件事﹐自由意志並不是免死金牌﹐你仍然需要承受每一個選擇所帶來的後過﹐這是神公義的表現。以smsboy網友自己的例子來說﹐自由意志在於你能選擇信或不信神﹐神本身不會強逼你去信﹔但信或不信都有其後果﹐信的後果是上天堂﹐不信的後果是下地獄﹐並不能因為自由意志而給予你特權﹐可以不信還能入天堂﹐這對相信的人是不公平的﹐違反了神公義的本質。至於smsboy網友說“人所選擇的超出了神給與的選擇範圍，最後神就幫人選，換言之，人的選擇是由神來規範，由神來作最後決定。”這在邏輯上是不能承立的。重點在於人擁有的是選擇權﹐並不是將自己的希望變成事實。人可以選擇相信無神論﹑佛教﹑道教等其他教派對死亡的解釋﹐如靈肉皆滅﹑輪迴﹑昇仙等﹐但這些只是主觀的願望﹐並不能因此成為事實。正如人可以相信自己會飛﹐但若從數百米的高處跳下仍然會死一樣﹔並不是神替你選擇了結果﹐而是人會飛的想法根本就不是事實。
而“所有事都是神作主導，你眼前的選擇，其實是神為你安排。”這句話smsboy網友是說得對的。神給人的是選擇的自由﹐並不是隨心所欲的超能力。祂讓人隨意使用自己的生命﹐但人仍然要為自己的選擇負責﹐這樣才算得上是公平。
至於smsboy網友“理論上，人類還在伊甸園時……逆轉，由此至終這都是人類的命運。”這段話(原文太長﹐請看smsboy網友的帖子)﹐其實不正是在解釋基督徒拼命傳福音的原因嗎﹖因為人越來越墮落﹐末日是免不了的﹐所以神才要多傳福音﹐好救多一點人。但請不要問我為甚麼不免除末日或神親手救世了﹐這在用自由意志解釋神為何讓亞當夏娃吃禁果時已說過﹐請去看小弟的帖子。
另﹑回答mememe網友的宣問﹕
一﹑以上種種當然只是我自己的見解﹐只是我覺得合理而在邏輯上站得住腳﹐所以在此與大家討論一下﹐並歡迎善意的指證。(至於惡意的……我就視而不見算了。)
二﹑對於神全知的理解﹐我在上一個帖子其實是有說過的﹐如下﹕“神的確是全知﹐但這全知並不是因為一切已預先編定﹐這種看法還是小看了神的能力﹔神的全知在祂能夠預見我們每一個人每一個決定所帶來的每一個不同的結果﹐並且跟據每一個結果制定出對我們的賞賜或懲罰。神的確是知道未來﹐但並不是單一定死了的未來﹐而是無限個各不相同的未來神全都知道﹐因此神是全知。”不知mememe 網友是否看漏了呢﹖若還有疑問﹐歡迎指證。
三﹑至於宿命論……就說我不相信宿命論好了﹐反正這不是重點。

P.S.感謝網友Gretzky﹑brightlee﹑及20steven的支持。

bengrace50

justin_lun兄，

你不答我呀，我好正經問，想知？

brightlee

Originally posted by justin_lun at 2005-6-24 04:49:
我想smsboy網友並沒有明白我對自由意...

u did it well!
We are on the same team in Christ
God will bless what's hard work
remember, when we preach Good News, people may not listen at that moment
It takes times, efforts and experience to let them to know God more...
The most important thing is: where is our heart

We are not the smartest men in the world
We may not answer all the questions from human
even we can answer all the questions, people can have freedom (that GOD gives it to us, not believe GOD)
but we are blessed that we know Him and we can serve HIM

May GOD bless u

Love in HIM
Bright

Gretzky

Originally posted by bengrace50 at 2005-6-24 02:52 AM:
justin_lun兄，

你不答我呀，我好正經問，想知？

Let me rephrase your questions…
1) If God is eternal, in what grounds does God ‘need’ a wife?
2) Does an eternal being have the ability to grow?
3) If a ‘being’ grows, does it mean this being will age and die?

Here we are talking about the deity/humanity of the nature of Jesus Christ. Let me try to answer it. However, there are some pre-suppositions we need to agree upon: If anyone can not take the following two presuppositions for discussion’s sake, then I would advise you to quit reading now. There’s no point of reading with a set of angry eyes and disgruntle soul. Fair enough?
-        We need to affirm there is reliable historical evidence in the New Testament books and the writings of historian Jospehus on the existence of Jesus and his claims to be fully human and fully God. (The authenticity of the two groups of documents is another subject in itself).
-        According to claims of Jesus, the only way he would be able to ‘save’ the sins of all is to die on the cross and be resurrected. That is, according to him, the very purpose he comes on earth.

A) The Developmental Growth of Jesus as a person:
According to the bible, Jesus went through all the normal processes of human development. He was conceived in Mary’s womb by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18, Luke 1:34-35). Mary did carry him to full term (Matthew 2:6-7). He grew up in Palestine as a normal boy, developing physically, mentally and emotionally (Matthew 2:40-52). Like all of us, he angered (Matthew 4:2), thirsted (John 19:28), was tired (Mark 4:38) and breathed (Luke 23:46) as a human. In fact the shortest verse in the bible describe this human side of Jesus: “Jesus wept” in John 11:35.
Jesus died a human death. Many people witnessed his death, including those who mocked him (Luke 23:48-49; John 19:25-27). His death was also confirmed by professional executioners of Rome. Jesus was buried in accordance with the customs of the time and set in a grave (John 19:38-41). You can get more human than that!

B) The Deity of Jesus as God
I won’t bore you with scripture references here. Basically if you have time to read the first four books of the New Testament bible (there are pictorial ones now), you will find numerous passages that Jesus actually claims to be God. And in that context he was referring to Yahweh God, the God of the Jewish people. This claim to be Yahweh God is also the reason why he was persecuted by the Jewish religious leaders. Even the Roman soldiers mocked him and asked Jesus to ‘come down from the cross if he was really God’ when they nailed him at Golgotha. How do we know Jesus is surely God? To answer this I would have to open up another topic....but let's just say the biggest miracle is the resurrection.

Brief answer to your questions:
1)        The Christian God does not need a wife to bore Jesus. Mary is a virgin when she was approach by the spirit. God did not have sex with Mary. Mary was chosen by God to give birth to Jesus. I would guess God could have chose many ways to do things, but he did chose the way he did.
2)        If Jesus is fully human and fully divine, as described in the scripture, I don’t see any reason that Jesus can’t grow. Oriental methodologies of God often offer a clear line between the divine and earthly. It is hard to use that point to view to look at the Judean-Christian concept of God. (that includes Judaism, Catholicism and mainstream Christianity)
3)        Jesus did die. I don’t think we have any dispute on that.

Let's keep this as discussions and hope we can learn something....
Gretzky


Mr. Yanmatthew, are you going to answer my question? or you are content to be the cut and paste guru?

[ Last edited by Gretzky on 2005-6-24 at 09:41 AM ]

sysykiller01

Originally posted by yanmatthew2006 at 2005-6-21 09:32:
以創世紀看耶和華真面目

耶和華是...

我她個宗教miss話因為天主愛我地
所以先比魔鬼存在係世上
比我地自由選揀追隨邊一個
但係我覺得點解拒要唔做
如果天主係愛我地點解要比誘惑我地
如果拒唔比魔鬼誘惑我地
等我地係世上或天堂得到自由唔係仲好咩??

bengrace50

Originally posted by Gretzky at 2005-6-24 09:36:



Let me rephrase your q...

Gretzky，

Thanks for your reply.  However, I think my Englsih is not enough to discus with you in Englsih for the religion.  I think I need to type in Chinese.  Moreover, I know you can read Chinese, right

You said

1)        The Christian God does not need a wife to bore Jesus. Mary is a virgin when she was approach by the spirit. God did not have sex with Mary. Mary was chosen by God to give birth to Jesus. I would guess God could have chose many ways to do things, but he did chose the way he did.

- 但我是指天上的個，唔係地上個。  地上的我明白，佛菩薩化現我們的世界的肉身也會老死，何況是神。  但我所知上帝、耶穌在天上也是這麼巨型，咁仲有上帝、耶穌要子女來做什麼？

Gretzky

hmm...not sure what you mean by 巨型.

But I do notice we seem to based our conversation on different platforms. You have your oriental one and I have my Ancient Near East one....

Thanks for the reading and reply though....I can really think in Chinese so my case would be very faulty if I was to conduct it in Chinese....my apology.

justin_lun

因為工作關係﹐我只能在部分時間發帖﹐不能即時回覆﹐請網友bengrace50原諒。至於閣下的問題﹐網友Gretzky已回答了﹐我只在此加上一﹑兩點私人見解﹐希望對你有幫助﹕
耶穌的出生是聖靈令童女(處女)瑪利亞懷孕的﹐耶穌的出生﹑長大﹑甚至死亡都是按照人的情況出現﹐並無分別﹐所以基督教強調耶穌有著完全的人性﹔而同時﹐耶穌並沒有人類的父親﹐他由聖靈成孕本身就是個神跡(就是以現今科技﹐也未能在不動手術的情形下令女性懷孕。)﹐而之後耶穌以木匠之子的身份(瑪利亞的丈夫﹑約瑟﹑是個木匠﹐但與耶穌並沒有血緣關係﹐是耶穌在世時名義上的父親。)傳道﹑醫病﹑行神跡﹑趕鬼﹑並在死後復活﹐而且耶穌並沒有原罪﹐所以說耶穌亦有著完全的神性(愛與公義)。
也就是說﹐耶穌有著兩個身分﹐他是人(至少曾經是﹐並且經歷過出生﹑成長及死亡)﹔但同時是神。在這裏不能不說神的三位一體定義(Trinity)﹐就是聖父(耶和華﹑造天地萬物那位)﹑聖子(耶穌基督)﹑及聖靈(令瑪利雅受孕的靈﹐並且在耶穌復活昇天後居住於每個信徒的心中﹐耶穌口中的保衛師)。父﹑子﹑靈都是神。三位一體的關係﹐就像同樣的果汁倒入不同的容器那樣﹐外表雖有異﹐本質卻相同。所以不是神要子女﹐而是父與子都是神。

smsboy

To Justin:
每一個宗教都是主觀的，你認為靈肉皆滅﹑輪迴﹑昇仙等只是主觀的願望，並不能因此成為事實，但信神而上天堂又是事實嗎?這亦是你主觀的願望，根本沒有人知道人死後會怎樣，有都是宗教上的定義。事情能否變成事實是受到很多容觀的環境因素而影響，就你的例子來說，人在地球從數百米的高處跳下一定會死，但如果在引力是地球的1/100的星球上跳下，要死都很難。那個宗教才是真理，未免言之過早。
另外，如果香港人可以全民普選特首，但參選人(選擇)只有兩個，都是由中央(神)選出，投票是強制性的，中央給你的投票權(選擇權)你會覺得很珍貴嗎?這一種"自由意志"真的可以稱得上是"自由"嗎?神給人的"自由意志"正是這種情況，人人都要死，生前有幾多的選擇都是一樣的結果，死後只有天堂與地獄。

[ Last edited by smsboy on 2005-6-24 at 04:48 PM ]

mememe

justin_lun兄,

一,二:

"神的確是知道未來﹐但並不是單一定死了的未來﹐而是無限個各不相同的未來神全都知道﹐因此神是全知。"

請解釋:如果有一位科學家製造了一個機械人﹐然後命令它去做一件科學家本身知道機械人無法做到的事。請問若然機械人無法成功辦到該事﹐這是機械人的錯嗎?

註: 重點只在于"製造"和"知道"。

註: 請慎重留意﹐在以上的比諭中我並無加進"一切已預先編定"的因素。機械人的程式可以完全符合自由意志﹐亦可以如你所講0甘產生"無限個各不相同的未來"。

請你務必回答以上問題。

三﹑

至於宿命論……就說我不相信宿命論好了﹐反正這不是重點。

你唔相信宿命論唔代表你可以隨便0甘否認"宿命論係事實"呢個可能。我既結論係"在全知,全能,和造物主的規限內宿命論係必然既"。你唔相信我既結論就請你去用邏輯去否定佢。