[quote]Originally posted by [i]brightlee[/i] at 2005-6-4 08:34 AM:o vG h3~?H \
4YB*U9M L+Y
? A
I was thinking for a while........ [/quote]
.wcvj:S9QN+uK i
我都希望如果真係有神嘅話, 佢会係好似你講到咁好啦
[quote]Originally posted by [i]JCer[/i] at 2005-6-4 02:15 AM:
其實我一直都想知...
如果我係唔信神既, 但我係一個好人, 咁我可唔可以上天堂呢?
希望有關人士可以答我 [/quote]
2Ki5p0`F-fPG
有一種說法是u O!YP*\(s
神是"一切萬有", 因為"一切萬有"無法經驗到自己的存在, 就正如宇宙最強不能體驗到自己是最強, 因此祂將自己分為無盡[份] ------ 以便每一[份]的祂得以回顧祂自己,並看到神是誰,神是什麼的奇妙. 故我們是神的一部份, 祂能夠從我們而經驗到祂的存在.
5@ k XYz?6N
神是一個觀察者, 永遠不會做審判者,因為祂創造生命的時候給了我們最大的禮物,就是自由意志, 讓我們自由地去創造自己,經驗自己,一旦祂對我們做出審判,就是破壞了祂給我們自由意志的原意.
w)i^ B pK8W
-?%Vn&?:K/U s
Z\b
祂不會因為我們做了什麼而給激怒, 也沒有東西可以偒害到祂.[color=Purple]所以神根本就沒有雖要創做天堂與地獄去懲罰[/color]那些做過所謂壞事的人, 只是人類當自己內疚做了一些自覺是天大的錯事後內心所創做出來的地獄. 如果神是不想我們去做某些事, 就不會把我們造成有去想,有去做那件事的可能. 宇宙間唯一會給冒犯的存在體是那有自我顧慮的存在體 ; 怕別人說他什麼, 怕別人對他做什麼. 神沒有這種自我顧慮. 神是超乎自我的. 如此的超乎自我, 以致人們無法想像. 神住在純粹的愛中. 純粹的愛不會因任何人懷疑, 思考或探測任何觀點而想要去懲罰誰. 人生是為了活著, 為了創造的. -[)i/n q,vy
[對] 與 [錯] 是人類價值體系中的哲學對立點, 在最終的實相中, 它是不存在的. 它們也不是恆常的,而總是時時在變動.
QfO9YC6K d+xg _
我們一直在做改變, 一直對價值觀改變主意, 以適合我們.
*E$S
t _P-[/]"D
[對] 與 [錯] 是我們想像的產品, 而[好] 與 [不好] 也僅僅表明我們最近的喜好與看法而已.ll z8Z l
[u ];D*O@$s@
比如, 以結束自己的生命而言, 目前在我們星球上大部份的流行說法是 “ 不好 “ . 是”違背法律” 的. 我們之所以達成這種結論, 應當是因為這樣很快會結束生命, 如果要花更長時間才結束生命, 雖然結果相同, 我們卻不認為是違法…
Q
v3H.Bm p)@6uGP
+B3|*s$Ut%m'c}
比如醫生幫助人自殺, 就會稱為[殺人], 而菸草公司這樣做, 則稱為[生意] …
在我們看來, 那似乎只是時間問題. 自我毁滅的[合法性] 也就是[對] 與 [錯] ---- 似乎只跟它的快與慢有關…. 死得愈快, 似乎就愈錯; 死得愈慢, 就愈為[得當]…
大部份對與錯的結論都是受群體意識的影響, 它是一個並沒有比人廣泛了解的東西, 然而
它卻力量極為強大. 因為每一個有意識的"思言行"都是有創造性的.6j yV5`TRr
2d-M
s0`/E;O M {(D
=====================================================
早期人類的宗教有些是建立在恐懼上的, 這些宗教的教誨是以對神的崇拜和恐懼為中心. 早期的教會要教友”改邪歸正”, “ 遵從主的話” , “每個星期天要進教堂” 否則神就會懲罰你, 不進教堂就會被宣佈有罪.這純粹是藉由恐懼來控制教友, 獲得教友%Wv-N)i3GgZv
(憑地獄 ------ 到現在仍然有效)
只要人類仍然相信神是 ---- 殘忍,自私,不饒恕, 並復仇心重, 那麼他就永遠會相信有地獄的存在, 相信有一個會把他打下地獄的神.9V,ym.a"M$F?"c
看起來人類似乎是無法憑自己天生的秉賦可以為善 可以行為得當. 因此就必須創立一種宗教, 傳播教誨, 說有一個憤怒的神, 報復心重的神, 如此才能讓人守分.
而”轉世” 這個觀念, 卻把這些宗教的教誨全盤打爛. z0_\;T tz0J,P(^.@$L
#l4r'RC \ZQ?
教會的宣稱是 : 你最好乖乖的, 不然就下地獄…. 而這時卻出現了” 轉世”論者, 他們說: { 你們這一世之後還有下一次機會, 下一次機會以後還有下下次機會,所以不必擔心, 盡量做好就是了.
#S&_a.V-c
早期的教會當然聽不下這種說法,因此它採取了兩個步驟: 第一, 宣佈”轉世”之說為異端; 第二,創立懺悔聖禮. 懺悔可以讓進教堂的人得到轉世之說所應允的東西, 即是給與另一次機會.
因此人們就設立了一種制度; 神會因你的罪而懲罰你 ----- 除非你懺悔. 只要懺悔, 你就安全,因為神會聽到了你的懺悔,會原諒你. !E*|!v)Zzm
但這裡有一個圈套. 就是罪的赦免絕不能直接由神而來. 而是必須透過教會, 由教士宣佈” 補贖, 這通常包括了要祈禱. 這樣, 你就有兩個原因必須當教友.*AQF&E Gj*g1g$};Z
教會發現懺悔很叫座, 於是就宣佈不懺悔就是罪, 每個人一年至少必須懺悔一次, 如果不這樣做, 神就又有原因發怒了.
}X&O&yd
但有另一個問題出現, 民眾想, 這表示只要他們肯懺悔, 則什麼事都可以做了. 因此教會又陷入困境. 民眾失去了恐懼. 教友和進教堂的人減少了, 民眾每年來懺悔一次, 唸了補贖, 赦了罪, 回去依然故我.
這不行, 必須想個辦法讓人重新恐懼起來.B_
X[;x
za$SF1L_
於是, 就發明了煉獄. O i KE_{
0{Z;Sp.z2T5ND
這個地方形容為類似地獄, 但不是永遠的. 這項新的教義宣稱: ;每個不完美的靈魂, 依其所犯的罪之多寡和種類, 而由神頌佈受苦的份量. 有不可饒恕的大罪和可以用祈禱等補贖的小罪. 大罪如果死前未做懺悔, 則死後直下地獄. 7IW9`6R*Jue
!N*kCG6g s1F
~ ] F
進教堂的人又多起來了. 奉獻多起來了, 尤其係捐款 ---- 因為煉獄的教義中有一條是可以” 買路脫苦” …feb Q'T ]
:L Z)] ]%T6cN-D3S
那捐獻真正一大筆鉅款的人可以得到大赦. 這意謂完全不用留在煉獄. 3z.MxrX4eV v(L h
但最窮的農民無望得到主教的赦免 ---- 於是老百姓對這個體系又失去了信仰, 會眾又要直線下降了. BEO} L^!{
之後他們又發明了”九日連禱” . )M'{ Vz!u2R
民眾可以到教堂, 為那” 在煉獄中可憐的靈魂” 點上一根九日連禱的蠟燭, 唸九日連禱經文, 這樣就可以為那心愛的逝世者敲掉幾年的” 刑期” ,將神要他們在煉獄中待的歲月減少一些. 許許多多的銀幣便給投入了許許多多的鐵皮罐中…. |,g*\ i?;}z7H'n+W
U
l5f;VC;O L(BRo
當神創造我們的時候, 神並不是要把我們創造得只能過一生 ---- 以宇宙的年齡而言, 真是無限短暫的一瞬.
轉世完全符合這種目的, 這目的就是神創造和體驗祂是誰 ----- 藉由我們生生世世, 並藉由億萬種神置於宇宙的其他有意識的造物.
-I1A`np?*w {
[[i] Last edited by spector.R on 2005-6-4 at 10:04 AM [/i]]
[quote]Originally posted by [i]JCer[/i] at 2005-6-4 01:57 AM:
如果世界上真係有神(Y9O
H/m!^5ZZ
有一日神真係出... [/quote]Om"k
?6X X
M
H
我会多謝佢帶咗我嚟一個咁恐佈嘅世界 [~/S f#k7})G
ef G U5~;a#E Q
同埋我会問佢平日忙 d 乜, 點解响呢個世界, 無天理嘅事情可以無止境咁一件接一件地發生, 全能嘅佢都可以坐視不埋, 吓吓要等最後審判, 真係蚊都訓vwZs1I2[
9G/|.B U3`H+F'T0n1G
口口声声話神愛世人, 老實講, 我真係完全 feel 唔到, 如果佢嬲我唔認佢, 咁我都嬲佢遺棄世人, 試想想, 一個遺棄你, 由得你自生自滅, 唔俾父愛你嘅老豆, 點認呀?
仲有我想問吓神, 南亞海嘯係咪佢攪架-D*d0uh i b
如果佢話係, 我会問佢 - 係咪好好玩架? 令十幾萬人一日冚包散係咪好過癮呀? 虎毒不吃兒喎, 點認你做老豆呀?
"|dSb'[4]
如果佢話唔係, 我会間佢 - 紅海你都分得開, 點解你唔做 d 嘢呀? 睇住十幾萬人一日冚包散係咪好好 feel 呢? 見仔死都唔救, 點認你做老豆呀?
神有權審判人, 人都應該有決審判佢啩, 佢做神呢份工做得稱唔稱識, 大家心裡有數, 中共咁唔民主都肯順應民意換特首, 對神唔滿意唔知點換呢?
仲有我会叫佢唔好成日叫人認佢做老豆, 我得一個老豆, 我得一個捱得好辛苦養大我嘅老豆, 我得一個自己唔食都要留俾我食嘅老豆, 佢三唔識七無端端走出嚟叫我認佢, 我認咗點對得住我自己個老豆呀? 真係點講都講唔通
我會好多謝佢咁早俾我認識佢. 俾我明白我喺呢個世界只係度過幾十年, 甚至更短嘅客旅生活. 俾我明白將來我會去邊度. 無論開心, 唔開心嘅事, 佢都陪伴我一齊經過.
[quote]Originally posted by [i]Gretzky[/i] at 2005-6-4 02:35 AM:
:l CG5x a-}2@
J,eM w'_a!@
-Traditional Chinese beli... [/quote]
'O!z,d_PXR5V:O
but did u think know that? l^8?O
x o m%Vc
if really have jesus, then there are none of other religions existing
from my christian fds said, other religions are just created by sada, they are bringing u away from jesus, if really have jesus, u belief others but not jesus.........7] kF(Tm@d
if u are jesus, will u still help yr sons??? )u YL5lR
many guys also said that jesus did nothing to show us there is jesus
but in fact, may be jesus has done a lot of things
but we never accept and trust, just simple case: there are so many christians and religioners have told us to belief.............
i am not a christian, some bro saying or thinking just like what i have thought b4
but, after serious thinking, i can say again, none know jesus is really existing or not4HF1^;W`/FzF"t|
if not, dun worry, what we have said to jesus b4, what did we think on jesus b4, even u --- about this, also ok
but, unluckily, if really existing8B^!r x^3z4KZb
then what will u think???????
dun say we are good, dun care then, what is good is not we think ourselves
if jesus is existing, the rule is followed by jesus's, not what we think,:Q
a(m0tq
if really existing, what the true will be what he has been said, r0k(e3K4af
at that moment, we really pk........8D(_2V~d"X,e"b|BU
so try to ask a serious question to yrself first: [If jesus is really existing, what will be the result?]1x ZA%e3q.B
what i mean is : 說話留一線 , 日後好相遇 ~
[quote]Originally posted by [i]singgeihot[/i] at 2005-6-4 10:35 AM:
仲有我会叫佢唔好成日叫人認佢做老豆,... [/quote]7~D Uwn9So
Z\M3`1[%IA9_
yes, what did u think is what i am confusing b4)@!dgG X
but after the argurment with my fds#u(H1CH^,sG,U
i tried to understand^*J'p~
`*_+\
from the view of christiansagGs/E_L
jesus really has a much much higher top than yr father#Fi)z,Ot
try to think:E+Fi+Uu#{9v
[If jesus is existing]h{
Z.}3P
jesus created this world, created yr father, u..........I aH[O0o R5~6BMc
yes, yr father give u a life
but who makes this order? $q'rHrz%_
is jesus.........
so correctly speech is jesus gives yr life, giveing all guys' life6Wl s{ n
so who is our father then???
[quote]Originally posted by [i]singgeihot[/i] at 2005-6-4 10:13 AM:Rc
do9@1r3tfl'p
仲有我想問吓神, 南亞海嘯係咪佢攪架
... [/quote]%uM)c*z J4^
bro, did u know that there is a 挪亞滅世 event in christian history?W T)oZh1lW
comparing this with the tsunami, the tsunami at the southeast asia is just a simple and small caseD5i+L,ip M
T0|
why this happen? just simple........punishment
many guys also think that god, jesus should give us all gd things
but why jesus need to do this?riL%a-_+@
`Z
punsihment for what???2^4W1Q{p;UXO
for his sons and daugthers who dun believe jesus
try to think u are jesus, u have done so many things about yr sons and daugthers
but so few of them believe u, even leaving away from u, scolding on u
what will u do???%f%x[??
{ xs
just sharing my view, not arguing yr points, :)
[quote]Originally posted by [i]jason williams[/i] at 2005-6-4 11:19 AM:j?e4x3o |$V3| nH,Y
~(NxaUU(PVB}
yes, what did u think is what i... [/quote]
.I0n5]iu%J$Y @
咁我多謝佢俾咗個咁好嘅老豆我囉
但係有 d 人一出世就無老母, 無老豆? 你實会話神想考驗佢哋, 神一定有佢嘅安排
咁 d 無老母, 無老豆, 餓死街頭嘅細路又點計呢? 如果又係神嘅安排, 佢都幾過癮喎
[quote]Originally posted by [i]jason williams[/i] at 2005-6-4 11:26 AM: F K aMA,o$[
bro, did u know that there is a 挪亞滅世 event in christian history?1b/yY*],N;NZ [
comparing this with the tsunami, the tsunami at the southeast asia is just a simple and small case
why this happen? just simple........punishment
many guys also think that god, jesus should give us all gd things
but why jesus need to do this?;r&}9Q%Q.L
punsihment for what??? ~8A`2].C8Ke P A `
for his sons and daugthers who dun believe jesus
try to think u are jesus, u have done so many things about yr sons and daugthers
but so few of them believe u, even leaving away from u, scolding on u "E w&t`$?0X
m'W2G0N)Q
what will u do???
just sharing my view, not arguing yr points,
[/quote](G.Y]1qCG7Dz
s SK9s bF]+F$mvt
sorry, I can't agree to this.. we have no evidence to backup the interpretation... whether or not it is a punishment.. I can only say I don't know. but there is a lot we can do.. to care, to love the people, and to preach the gospel.
[quote]Originally posted by [i]jason williams[/i] at 2005-6-4 11:26 AM:epY}3Z
D!{(s _
*b1B,@Z8m{[I6mw
bro, did u know that there is a... [/quote]
TYYSu I
好似你老豆養大你, 但係你唔理佢, 唔聽佢話, 佢就有權唔声唔声浸死你.... 仲唔小心浸死埋你個好乖好聽話嘅細妹.... 好恐佈呀 :o9y!r-\`D/S N
+@!GU;h.k Z1H.I
議事論事啫. Not arguing. Just debating.
bro singgeihot and rest365days NBk6c`5hwN
honestly, if there is jesus+`H
zOq:|&[gh"o
he really can do what he wants because what we own now is created by jesus ~2y@a
pF
we can't blow him :cool:
[quote]Originally posted by [i]singgeihot[/i] at 2005-6-4 11:39 AM:HWZ;Q7n!l)K
iO`
R#[{U
好似你老豆養大你, 但係你唔理... [/quote]?_h-f|.VY
4x4YF'LTIT%{
yes ga, this is really what he can do if u are the naughty son, but for the good daughter, jesus will not take away her life-s p(IfiSzp(l
just like the case in 挪亞方舟, this boat is made because jesus want to save the guy who believes in jesus and so told him to make it
so jesus is not killing all, even the good guys......yo,\^$M X ^%y*Jc N
now, i am still thinking, if it is true, i must pk because i have done a lot of bad things:P
[quote]Originally posted by [i]jason williams[/i] at 2005-6-4 11:42 AM:
bro singgeihot and rest365days
honestly, if there is jesusB U P'jo%W
}*tao h
he really can do what he wants because what we own now is created by jesus!c;W u Hx;O8p`8?0p
we can't blow him :cool: [/quote]
Z4N bBo|~
understand, my concern is.. the tsunami is a controversial topic..真的是懲罰嗎? 一定是懲罰嗎? 有什麼evidence讓我們把事情提升到屬靈的層面? 就看待為一個自然災害不可以嗎?
em.. i think it's good to back to topics k6V,Na2?&rO
otherwise another non-stopping............... aiiiii....
自然災害? 神全能架, 天地佢創造架, 佢咪自然囉.... or 自然災害囉 :P
[quote]Originally posted by [i]singgeihot[/i] at 2005-6-4 12:06 PM:
自然災害? 神全能架, 天地佢創造架, 佢咪自然囉.... or 自然災害囉 :P [/quote]$?-S2P8N1H-F}`
8]%wL&E L;N3[
haha, but the "purpose" may not be punishment...:cool: