snowbal

Gretzky,

very nice of a summary,  

not too many people will have the same insight like just what you have stated..  however,
glad to see someone with such an intellegent post

westsider

1) If the whole world and universe are a sequence of random variables... if you look form the probability point of view, it will be a number like 2to the power of more than 30. A very very very small chance. It would take even a bigger faith to believe this theory than believe the world was created by GOD.

But do you have to believe in a view that require "less faith"? Can you just wait and see? I am waiting to see, and I am more comfortable with looking into the probability point of view.

In 1935, Einstein et al published the "EPR paradox". They tried to use some probabilistic interpretation to question the statistical nature of Quantum Mechanics. In 1964, Bell proved by the "Bell's Theorem", that EPR's probabilistic framwork is absolutely wrong.

I am more interested with something that can be rigorously verified/disproved. Simply because I would have a right/wrong answer at the end of the day.

2) Arguing BIBLE is absolute truth or "99.99 truth" ( I have to clarify that I mean 99.99% truth is the translation) is somewhat waste of time, because if you do not believe the BIBLE is the record that was recording history of man and the relationshiip between GOD and man. Then there is no point of going forward. For myself, the more I read the BIBLE, the more I found out how GOD intervene man's life through out human's history. The Bible did not only say how great of successful when those man follow GOD. Instead, it shows how weak human are, LOOK at Solomon, David, Jacob, most of them were so called great person in the BIBLE.. Look at what they have done in their whole life. The Bible did not hide their short fall. Instead it kept on stating human's shortfall.
If you can read the Bible with an open mind and look at it from a more historic and human sense ( Like reading a novel). You will find it very intersting.

Are you suggesting that the Bible must be interpreted subjectively? Then how would you know that your perception, and thus your belief, is 100% correct?

The subjective interpretation of the Bible led to bad things such as the Crusades and Inquisition. The believers didn't know that they're wrong back then. How do you know that you're right in the present?

To take a step further, one subjective interpretation is the determination of the "context" of the Bible. Where does it apply? "1984" by George Orwell is a fiction that correctly reflected the current state of Western Society and predicted future social changes. And a collection of Chinese literatures recorded Chinese history from way back. So, how would you take the Bible beyond a "good history book" and a "good observation of social evolution"?

Apparently the Bible has none or very little contradition to science or culture, because it has always been interpreted subjectively. One reason the Bible is accepted by republic, monarchical, and deomocratic society is that the Bible can be interpreted subjectively to fit what people thinks.

3) I always think, if there is no GOD, then what are we doing on earth, why do we have to do what we ae doing now?  Life is so short? Why don't I enjoy my life while I can? Why do I have to be a god man? WHy do I have to abide all the rules set by human, both moral and legal rules? I should enjoy myself with my maximum ability. It does not matter you have religious believeor not, but you have to admitt everyone has a moral standard...

Religions have heavy influence on the moral and legal standard of our society. Just look at gay marriage in America. And moral standard is directly affected by your up-bringing. Most people believe in what their parents told them.

The "moral standard" you're abided to has nothing to do with religion. If you go back 1000 years in China, pre-maritial sex is against anyone's "moral standard". But if you go to Amsterdam right now, I bet every teenager is looking for sex.

WHy don't we just do whatever we like?

Alot of people do, but most religious peope don't.

Why did we have conscience and not other living creature?

Even if conscience exist, how can you conclusively link it to God and not other things?

4) Believe in GOD, like a sounds, it is a believe, believe involve faith, something that cannot be caluclate or proof. However, it does involve experience. I firmly believe if anyone really want to experience GOD, he/she can and will. But man are too busy in other things, making a lving, having a better living, a lot of other things to chase, and not enough time...... And the main reason is, man wants to be their own god, we are all afraid if we let God intervene our life, there will be a lot of things that we can not do......... What happen if we slack off at work, or got drunk... and many many other things....... there will be a lot of rules that will bound us from enjoying our life......

I can tell you this, I felt the same too before...... but more I know theGOD we believe and His plan, the less concern and worries I have.... because  when you really read the BIBLE, GOD said it very clear, HE wants us all to haveJOY , not just after our earthly life, but NOW. BIBLE is not a book of laws, but rather a book of resource to find JOY and resource to live.

But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?

Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.

And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.

Do you believe in History of man? Do you believe the persons that write the history were telling the truth? Do you believe the existence of ROman Empire? Greek culture? Chinese? Indian? Were all those people that record their history are telling the truth?

I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.

In today's world, sometimes, we can't even believe what we see...... so in whatever way, everything involves a certain degree of faith......

But why you have to believe in something? I have THREE options: 1)to believe 2) to believe against 3) not to make a decision. I have THREE, not TWO.

In the BIBLE case, I believe everything that record in there is Truth.

But can you tell me why? I want to know.

Make it short, if you read the Bible with a critical view and not even try to have a objective mind.. than the BIBLE means nothing to yu but just anoother book..... but if you have a open mind and willing to see whether the Word in the BIBLE is powerful or not, then I am sure you wll find amazing result......

I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?

Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??


Thank you very much.

brightlee

Remember one thing:
Christianity is not ONLY talking about RELIGIONS
it's talking about relationship between God and us.

May GOD bless everything.
westsider, that's good to see you are opening your heart and asks your questions to GOD, I am sure GOD is really appericated your reaction, keep going.

imaimashi: if you have MSN/ICQ, pls leave it to me, Iwould like to chat to u

Love in HIM,
Bright

westsider

Originally posted by Gretzky at 2005-8-18 08:21 AM:
snowbal and westsider pals,

The ...

I am not starting a war. I am asking questions because I care. I won't spend all these time typing things up otherwise.

I think this is a good answer to question 3).

I am interested in knowing why people believe in the Chrisitian God based on these collection of scriptures.

But if you look at the Dead Sea scrolls for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls
The Dead Sea scrolls were not even 100% about Christianity. I mean there are multiple religions based on portion of these scriptures.

So in the framework of Christianity, how did people determine which scripture to include into the Bible? Did Bible/God indicate which scriputre to include? and how?

westsider

Well I apologize if my words sounding too harsh.

I mean I know these are tough questions. And some of them are taught in grad school in Dvinity or something. But I don't have all the time in the world to do that, so I'm just interested in some quick answers....

brightlee

Originally posted by westsider at 2005-8-18 11:55:
Well I apologize if my words soundi...

That's ok, I could understand you are trying to know and learn things
Sometimes, we need to slow down, and open a room, to let GOD talk to us in His way
I am glad that you are starting to seek His helps
Be strong and wait........

Bright

snowbal

Quote:
The subjective interpretation of the Bible led to bad things such as the Crusades and Inquisition. The believers didn't know that they're wrong back then. How do you know that you're right in the present?

Response:
You are exactly right, a lot of people using religion to pursue their own personal interest, that is why in USA and many other western countries state in their constitution religion and political  must be separated

If someone use religion to achieve their personal agenda, then condemn the religion is not right.


Quote:
Religions have heavy influence on the moral and legal standard of our society. Just look at gay marriage in America. And moral standard is directly affected by your up-bringing. Most people believe in what their parents told them.


Response:
SO, you think our moral standard is totally influence by religion. I think it is a little subjective. However, it is true that no matter where you live, in the modern world or in very remote area in Africa. All human will in one way or the other worship a god….  Although sometimes they do not know what they are worshiping. In either way, all human does have a very basic moral standard to govern.


Quote:
WHy don't we just do whatever we like?


Alot of people do, but most religious people don't.

Response:
I do not agree on that, like my example stated in my last quote….

If someone offend you and you will just go and punch the person out??

Will you do something to embrass yourself in front of a lot of people?


Quote:
Why did we have conscience and not other living creature?


Even if conscience exist, how can you conclusively link it to God and not other things?

Response:

Now, I based this from the BIBLE, God ssid HE made man according to HIS image, and gave us a conscience mind just like HIM.
Of course, for you to accept this mean you have to admit the BIBLE is true. It may be a little tough for you.



Quote:

But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?

Response:
Christianity does not require 100% change I your values.
Rather,  as a Christian, we can do things that we know it that is right and not doing things that is against our principal with EASE and peace of mind.


Quote:
Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.

Response:
This is a very shallow view on Christianity. God promised Joy , that means we will find JOY on earth, we will enjoy all the things just as everyone else. But one thing different, As a Christian, we believe God will take care of us. It does not mean Christian will not face suffering, but rather, God will provide a way out, Again, this is a very personal experience. For people that have doubt in God’s power. It will be tough to accept this fact.

Quote:
And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.

Response:
I think what you raise here, is pure for argument sake…ha ha..




Quote:

  Quote:
Do you believe in History of man? Do you believe the persons that write the history were telling the truth? Do you believe the existence of ROman Empire? Greek culture? Chinese? Indian? Were all those people that record their history are telling the truth?


I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.

Response:


I think this is purely for argument sake, if you have doubt on everything, I guess you must be very skeptic on everything….



Quote:
  Quote:
In the BIBLE case, I believe everything that record in there is Truth.


But can you tell me why? I want to know.


Response:

All I can tell you is my own personal experience,

1)        I believe this world is created by someone that is much more intellegent than human
2)        Compare to other religion, Christianity is the only religion that based on history and can be traced back with accuracy
3)        The more I read the Bible, the more I found that the astonishing truth









Quote:

I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?

Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??


Response:

You are very right, you can take any book and right a review with your own subjective  view….  You can do it with the BIBLE too,  DID you try to do that? See whether  you can found some flaw in the BIBLE…… But make sure,  do a through research….

As for me, I have utmost confidence that you will fail, try to proof me wrong….




Best of wish

x_integration_x

Originally posted by westsider at 2005-8-17 01:31 PM:


So how would you answer if I as...

To simply answer your question "Why do you believe in God?"

Because I see how God molds me in everyday of my life.  I was a failure when I was young, I skipped classes and hanged around with friends.  Six years ago, I was lucky enough that God provided me an opportunity to study at college.  But, I didn't cherish the chance God gave me.  I got kick out at last.

At that time, I was so lost...  I can't get a job because I am lack of education.  I don't know what to do.  My parent was so worry about me at that time.  At that time, many people told me to pray and pray...... I tried and tired.... God gave me no response.  I hate God at that time because He ignored me so badly even when I pray 10 times a day.

God tought me a big lesson thru this incident.  He wants me to learn how to concentrate and focus on my works.

To make the long story short, God provides me an opportunity to study at the University.  I received scholarship every years and unexpected research opportunities throughout my undergrad. study.  At last, I received around 12,000 HKD scholarship for my graduate study.

God loves us so much if you believe in Him.  He makes everything possible.

[ Last edited by x_integration_x on 2005-8-18 at 11:28 AM ]

brightlee

Thanks for your sharing, Tony.....
westider, I would suggest you to do one thing:
Think about the relationship between you and GOD.
This may help you to answer your questions in your heart
Bright

westsider

Originally posted by x_integration_x at 2005-8-18 11:20 AM:



To simply answer your questio...

I see. Thanks. The interesting thing is that, I have quite an opposite expereince.

I was born and raised in a Christian family. Moved oversea and skipped two grades. In highschool, I found something wrong with my life as I found out the difference between the Chrisitan community and the general community. The single-minded small community lifestyle in the Church didn't make as much sense as the cynical, critical, and rational thinking of the general public. I can only learn from mistake, so I went on self-destruction, failed two years of highschool, and went back to normal in my acamdemic progress. Then I finsihed my undergrad study with a breeze and proceeded to my PhD now.

There were definitely tough times, and in my lowest moments I did think about God. But thing is, I was brought up in this pure Christian propaganda from age zero, and I am not sure if such feeling is indeed the "calling of God", or if it is just a desperation cry for this "safety net" that has been engraved into my mind since I was a child.

I have learnt to accept that fact that things happen, be it good or bad. And when bad things happened to me, I don't even look for an answer. I'll just tell myself that "sh1t happens".

That's why I am now looking for rational ways of validating Christianity or other believes. And I think that the "truth" should be validate from multiple starting points.