westsider

Originally posted by snowbal at 2005-8-18 10:43 AM:
Response:
You are exactly right, a lot of people using religion to pursue their own personal interest, that is why in USA and many other western countries state in their constitution religion and political  must be separated

If someone use religion to achieve their personal agenda, then condemn the religion is not right.

I am not even worrying about other people. My worry is that, if subjective interpretation led to mistake, how do I know that my own subjective interpretation is correct?

Response:
SO, you think our moral standard is totally influence by religion. I think it is a little subjective. However, it is true that no matter where you live, in the modern world or in very remote area in Africa. All human will in one way or the other worship a god….  Although sometimes they do not know what they are worshiping. In either way, all human does have a very basic moral standard to govern.

What I'm saying is that moral values are results of life experince. How can one really isolate the "common" moral values?

If I put two new-born babies into seperate, isolated islands, and bring them back to the society after the age of 25. If I don't educate then in anyway, are they going to feel bad for robbing people, having sex in the public, or even killing people? I cannot answer this question.

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WHy don't we just do whatever we like?
Alot of people do, but most religious people don't.

Response:
I do not agree on that, like my example stated in my last quote….

If someone offend you and you will just go and punch the person out??

Will you do something to embrass yourself in front of a lot of people?

I would. I kicked alot asses, and I did alot of stupid things in my life. I don't feel bad about them. When I look back, I just think that it is part of my life experience.

Quote:
But beliving in Christainity requires a 100% change in your values. They belive that the suffering at the present does not matter. that what really matters is the eternal life. I mean if you don't care about what you cared before, obviously you're gonna be more joyful?

Response:
Christianity does not require 100% change I your values.
Rather,  as a Christian, we can do things that we know it that is right and not doing things that is against our principal with EASE and peace of mind.

Yes. Beliving in certain principals and living by them will give you peace of mind. But accepting fate also gave me peace of mind.

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Psychologically, they baiscally say that "I won't worry about all these because God will take care of it." Of course they're gonna be more happy.

Response:
This is a very shallow view on Christianity. God promised Joy , that means we will find JOY on earth, we will enjoy all the things just as everyone else. But one thing different, As a Christian, we believe God will take care of us. It does not mean Christian will not face suffering, but rather, God will provide a way out, Again, this is a very personal experience. For people that have doubt in God’s power. It will be tough to accept this fact.

I totally understand what you're saying. Going to my very first message, I am looking for the "truth", not "joy". If the truth gives me joy, fine. If it brings me grief, fine.

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And most importantly, the belief gives your a better life, no doubt. But how do you know that that it is the truth just because of that? The truth could be a bad thing. The "truth" and the "perfect remedy for life" are mutually exclusive.

Response:
I think what you raise here, is pure for argument sake…ha ha..

You are completely incorrect. This is my personal philosophy.

I don't. That's why I don't care about any subjective studies. If you looking at how certain nations are writing their modern history textbooks, you know not to believe any subjective resources.

Response:

I think this is purely for argument sake, if you have doubt on everything, I guess you must be very skeptic on everything….

You are completely incorrect. This is my personal philosophy. I am skeptical towards everything, including myself. I learn things in generalized universial framework, everything has to be correct and consistent.That's why I averaged C+ in all my humanities electives in undergrad.

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I can take any book and interpret it in alot of ways. The question is: should I?

Why should I figuratively interpret the Bible, and apply such interpretation in a "subjectively determined context"??

Response:

You are very right, you can take any book and right a review with your own subjective  view….  You can do it with the BIBLE too,  DID you try to do that? See whether  you can found some flaw in the BIBLE…… But make sure,  do a through research….

As for me, I have utmost confidence that you will fail, try to proof me wrong….

As I ask you, is subjective interpretation the only way of reading the Bible? If so there is no way of finding "flaws" in the Bible. Because whatever you do, you can also say that "oh, this figuratively means that". But at the same time, I can also make a lot of subjective interpreations that are wrong, but these don't invalidate the Bible either.

Oh the otherhand, if there is some objective ways of looking at the Bible, I can at least have a true/false answer. That's what I'm looking for right now.

Gretzky

Westsider,

Since you are doing your PhD. (good to know someone is on the same level!) I would recommend this volume to you.

"Truth is Stranger than it used to be" by Walsh and Middleton.

From what you have written...you probably grew up in a fundamentalist Ethnic Church background with v. little regards to the rational side of faith. And you got it right on the money...there a lots of propaganda from Churches these days and they seperate beliefs from rational/academic realm. It probably has to do with the anti-intellectualism in Evangelicalism since 1860s in UK and Eastern states of US.

But the interesting thing around the posts in this thread is...I can sense you are still very much in the 'searching' and 'validating' mood for the so called Christian faith.

I am not asking you to go to church or read the bible. In fact, I am asking you not to attend church and read the bible (if you are still doing it) for now. Just take a few days into the woods and ask God (if there's one..and a Christian one) to show you some signs so you can be relieved from your struggles.

I left the church when I was 14...took me 2 yrs and a major car accident to think about what is that I thought I believed and what I should do about faith.

Like I said...if you wanna talk privately...I am more than happy to chat via email or msn...Brightlee has my contact...you can get him to PM you.

:-) Gretz.

westsider

Originally posted by Gretzky at 2005-8-18 01:43 PM:
Westsider,

Since you are doing y...

Thank you. So what field are you in?

I don't think the level of education really matters here because I am not specialized on this particular subject, and I don't know more than anyone here. I'll check that book out.

I don't use MSN/ICQ. If you want to contact me, send an email to

[email protected]

This is my spamming decoy. I will get your email from there and verify afterwards.

snowbal

Westsider

I think what you are arguing all alone is how can you trust the BIBLE, Is it worth believing?

It is very interesting that for you and Gretzky both went through some personal experience and then start thinking about the meaning of life.


For Christian, we will view it as a wakening call from God, because for most of us, Christian or not, we are somehow too busy in our life. Study, work, social life, we just do not have time to sit down and think about what or where we are heading and the purpose of living.

I am a little different form you in terms of background wise,  but I too grew up in a Christian church environment. I had the same questions that you have. I tried to ask for an answer, but somehow no one seems to be able to answer my questions. Most of them gave me standard answer. It cannot convince me that what I believe is true. So, going to church or reading Bible, praying became a boring routine for me.

When I finished school, (I did not have PHD..Ha..ha..) I started working, and making quite good money. God became further and further away from me. The Christian “rule” became a burden to me when I am in the secular world. So, I decide to tell God, I kind of need a break, Leave me alone for a while, let me “explore” and “tackle” the fascinating world for a while. I will be back soon.

Well, then I did what most young people do, enjoying life and use my time to work and make the most money as I can. Until one day, something happened to me, it was a big shock for me. I found out what I have been chasing for was not long lasting. What I treasured for was not secure. I have to ask myself, what the heck had I been doing?

It took me years and God’s MIRACLE to make me realize that my focus in my life was all wrong. God woke me up, HE told me that to pursue happiness is not wrong, but no matter how nice a car I am driving, how big the house I am living, or how update I was dressing, there is something deep inside me that is not happy. The emptiness cannot be fufill by material.

I read a book “ A Road less Travelled” Scott Peck. It  helped me to think, do I want to take a road that the majority of people will take, or do I want to take a road that is less traveled? What should I choose to have a happier life? A meaningful life?

I have to say this is my personal subjective experience. But I can tell you honestly and confidently by quoting a verse from the Bible….
“My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you” Job 42:5

I can tell you that GOD really speaks to me, not from the BIBLE, but really speaks to me.
Again it is a very subjective experience. I do not want to argue. I am just telling you my personal experience.



IN summary, I can share what message God had told me.

Do whatever you are doing , do it with all your effort, for those things that you cannot change, live it to HIM. We are not GOD, GOD has a plan for everyone, all we have to do is try our best, and good result will come, not after our death, but results that we can see.

Isn’t it sounds like what you believe, “Fate”….



Alll the best

snowbal

Befroe I signed out,

I would like to add one more thought,

We all want instant result, I guess we all always say time is short, can't afford to waste. SO, we all want everyhting as fast as possible. This is probably the typical North Amercia culture..

Fast food is convience , but is it good to our health...?????

More and more I know the biggest lesson that we all have to learn is patient......

Westsider,   You did not get yur PHD in a snap, right? From High school to undergrad to grad school, how many years, how many hours........ do you think you master what you are major in?

Give God and give yurself sometime, I am sure you will find the right answer.....


All the best

westsider

But why would "the truth" necessarily give me something longlasting? why would it give me a purpose of life?

"The truth" might as well be void.

Something that gives me happiness might not necessarily be the truth, and I simply don't see the reason of claiming something to be real just because it makes you happy.

As for "time", I think it takes several years to learn about a religion. and i don't think there's enough time to learn about all of them, because of how ambiguous they can be.

Anyways, this has been a fruitful dicussion. At least I found out how you guys support your belief.

snowbal

We are the most entertained generation in history. Television sets pull in hundreds of channels; professional sports teams and pop music groups takes in (and spend) billions of dollars; millions of people own second and third homes for vacations in America; we get upset if we can’t get the latest computer games for Christmas.

        I believe the frantic search for entertainment is a symptom of something deeper. Some have suggested we are the most bored generation in history – and perhaps they are right. Down inside is an empty place in our hearts – a restlessness, a search for inner peace and tranquility-that will not go away. The irony is, the more we try to satisfy it, the less content we become.
        Only from God through Jesus Christ can fill that empty space n our hearts, and He will as we open our lives to Him. But God’s word also points us to the future- to Heaven, where our restless hearts will be at peace. “ There remains, therefore, a rest for the people of God.”